Discussion:
Adult Beginner - Bach lover
(too old to reply)
Henry
2003-07-25 02:55:48 UTC
Permalink
I am a 38 years old male thinking of starting piano lessons. I played
guitar in a amateur rock band when I was in high school, and stopped
when I graduated from college. Never touch any musical instrument ever
since and I never learned to read music.

My concern is, will I be able to find a teacher, or a certain piano
method that uses exclusively some simplify pieces of JS Bach's work
for practicing or learning ? The only reason I want to learn piano is
to play Bach's music, and I cannot bear the idea of being force into
playing something i don't like (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) I know this
sounds ridiculous since Bach never wrote anything for the piano, but I
think his music sounds heavenly on anything.

I don't mind practing scales, just can't bear to play something I
don't admire.

And it is practical, or does it make any sense to look for a teacher
who loves Bach's music like I do ?

Appreciate your comments.

Jack
darcy walker
2003-07-25 09:13:19 UTC
Permalink
i understand your passion for bach, and although i have played piano for
most of my life, i only began to study bach seriously in my late 30s.
and, as far as i'm concerned, the short is yes; by all means jump on in.
there is much to learn from even the simplest of bach music...but i
would caution you to avoid heavily-edited 'beginners' books...find a
good teacher, express your interest in bach, and ask him/her if they can
help you get started. some of the two-part inventions are playable with
moderate piano ability, and even if you don't quickly get to the point
where you can play the pieces with virtuosity, you will learn invaluable
lessons with regards to bach's method of composing, how polyphony works,
and on and on. go ahead with this. the study of bach has done more than
anything to further my musical education.
Post by Henry
I am a 38 years old male thinking of starting piano lessons. I played
guitar in a amateur rock band when I was in high school, and stopped
when I graduated from college. Never touch any musical instrument ever
since and I never learned to read music.
My concern is, will I be able to find a teacher, or a certain piano
method that uses exclusively some simplify pieces of JS Bach's work
for practicing or learning ? The only reason I want to learn piano is
to play Bach's music, and I cannot bear the idea of being force into
playing something i don't like (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) I know this
sounds ridiculous since Bach never wrote anything for the piano, but I
think his music sounds heavenly on anything.
I don't mind practing scales, just can't bear to play something I
don't admire.
And it is practical, or does it make any sense to look for a teacher
who loves Bach's music like I do ?
Appreciate your comments.
Jack
Chloe
2003-07-25 11:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by darcy walker
i understand your passion for bach, and although i have played piano for
most of my life, i only began to study bach seriously in my late 30s.
and, as far as i'm concerned, the short is yes; by all means jump on in.
there is much to learn from even the simplest of bach music...but i
would caution you to avoid heavily-edited 'beginners' books...find a
good teacher, express your interest in bach, and ask him/her if they can
help you get started. some of the two-part inventions are playable with
moderate piano ability, and even if you don't quickly get to the point
where you can play the pieces with virtuosity, you will learn invaluable
lessons with regards to bach's method of composing, how polyphony works,
and on and on. go ahead with this. the study of bach has done more than
anything to further my musical education.
I think this is good advice. Someone else suggested starting with
harpsichord or organ, but in practical terms for both technique and
availability of an instrument, starting with piano makes more sense.
Generally organists need to have developed a solid piano technique before
taking on the additional challenges of the pedalboard and the mandatory
ability to play in legato style that the organ demands.

I think Bach's music represents the ultimate in genius in terms of the
period when he was composing, but after some study you may find that you
enjoy playing the music of other Baroque composers, too. If I were you and
looking for a teacher I'd make my preferences clear from the start. Since
most organists have an extensive background of piano study, piano lessons
with someone who's primarily a Baroque organist might make sense, too. Many
people are proficient at both instruments.
Post by darcy walker
Post by Henry
I am a 38 years old male thinking of starting piano lessons. I played
guitar in a amateur rock band when I was in high school, and stopped
when I graduated from college. Never touch any musical instrument ever
since and I never learned to read music.
My concern is, will I be able to find a teacher, or a certain piano
method that uses exclusively some simplify pieces of JS Bach's work
for practicing or learning ? The only reason I want to learn piano is
to play Bach's music, and I cannot bear the idea of being force into
playing something i don't like (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) I know this
sounds ridiculous since Bach never wrote anything for the piano, but I
think his music sounds heavenly on anything.
I don't mind practing scales, just can't bear to play something I
don't admire.
And it is practical, or does it make any sense to look for a teacher
who loves Bach's music like I do ?
Appreciate your comments.
Jack
Edgar Lins
2003-07-25 13:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chloe
Generally organists need to have developed a solid piano technique before
taking on the additional challenges of the pedalboard and the mandatory
ability to play in legato style that the organ demands.
Is it true that you play an organ legato?
I have no organist nearby I can ask but I imagine because of the
reverbaration in a church you would rather play non-legato to get no
blurred sound in the audience room.
Chloe
2003-07-25 14:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edgar Lins
Post by Chloe
Generally organists need to have developed a solid piano technique before
taking on the additional challenges of the pedalboard and the mandatory
ability to play in legato style that the organ demands.
Is it true that you play an organ legato?
I have no organist nearby I can ask but I imagine because of the
reverbaration in a church you would rather play non-legato to get no
blurred sound in the audience room.
I'm an organist, although I'm probably not nearby <g>.

To clarify: a developed technique requires that an organist have the
capability of playing a lot of the literature in a legato manner. This may
be an oversimplification, but imagine playing the piano with no sustain
pedal, ever. You'd be okay without it in some situations, but in others
you'd absolutely have to create legato with just your hands. Otherwise a lot
of what you'd play would sound unpleasantly choppy. And because pianists
have the sustain pedal available to them, there's really no need to develop
this hands-only legato technique to such an extent--it's just a helpful
feature of the instrument that the organ lacks.

Reverberation in churches or other buildings can range from effectively zero
to a time frame of many seconds. But also imagine that if you wanted to
fully compensate for a (not unusual) reverb of 3 seconds how you wouldn't
strike a note, wait for it to die away, then strike the next note, and so
on.

Expert organists will indeed adjust their style of playing to some extent
depending on reverberation and other acoustical factors, but this in no way
obviates the need for legato playing.
Buffy The Cache Coder
2003-07-26 05:27:58 UTC
Permalink
I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but my teacher told me to
play legato -as if not using the pedal- while using the pedal.
Ofcourse, there will be times you cannot do this, e.g., large jumps.
However, play large jumps as if you are playing legato without
pedal. Ofcourse, in all situations, play legato, when required to do so.

He claims you can hear the difference, and I think I can.


So I am under the impression -from my completely limited view- that
other pianist also play 'finger legato' when using the pedal.
[Edited to some extent..]
because pianists
have the sustain pedal available to them, there's really no need to develop
this hands-only legato technique to such an extent--it's just a helpful
feature of the instrument that the organ lacks.
j***@sonic.net
2003-07-27 22:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Therefore, Piano technique should be mastered to a reasonable
level of competence before turning to the Organ.
A curious statement considering that the golden age of the organ was before there
were any modern pianos.

OTOH, I would agree that for works influenced by the Lemmens school, piano
playing experience can be very helpful.
John Briggs
2003-07-27 22:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@sonic.net
Therefore, Piano technique should be mastered to a reasonable
level of competence before turning to the Organ.
A curious statement considering that the golden age of the organ was
before there were any modern pianos.
OTOH, I would agree that for works influenced by the Lemmens school, piano
playing experience can be very helpful.
Alright then, "Clavichord technique should be mastered to a reasonable level
of competence before turning to the Organ".
--
John Briggs
Max
2003-08-28 07:30:19 UTC
Permalink
When you lift the piano key, the damper comes down
immediately, killing the sound, but the effect is far larger in the
organ
because the piano sound decays exponentially (ie rapidly), while the
organ
sound is constant (you can even make it get louder with time).
Kindly explain how the organ sound will become louder without: opening
the boxes further /or/ adding stops? each action inherently changing the
specific note (reached by the specific key).
The organ note gets louder as it begins to reverberate. A reverse attack.
-Max

Henry
2003-07-25 15:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Thanks to everyone who spent the time to respond to my question, you
are very helpful. Am very happy to learn that one can start piano with
Bach's work ! I can't wait ! I remember Henry Moore once said all
great art works are some sort of mysteries. I think some of Bach
simplest works are the most mysterious music around. They are so
simple but so magically deep and uplifting.

Anyway like one of you said finding a good teacher could be a
challenge. It is interesting that in the piano world most players seem
to prefer other composers. And my observation has been that most bach
lovers are man, for some unknown reason....

Thanks again for your help.

Jack
Post by darcy walker
i understand your passion for bach, and although i have played piano for
most of my life, i only began to study bach seriously in my late 30s.
and, as far as i'm concerned, the short is yes; by all means jump on in.
there is much to learn from even the simplest of bach music...but i
would caution you to avoid heavily-edited 'beginners' books...find a
good teacher, express your interest in bach, and ask him/her if they can
help you get started. some of the two-part inventions are playable with
moderate piano ability, and even if you don't quickly get to the point
where you can play the pieces with virtuosity, you will learn invaluable
lessons with regards to bach's method of composing, how polyphony works,
and on and on. go ahead with this. the study of bach has done more than
anything to further my musical education.
Post by Henry
I am a 38 years old male thinking of starting piano lessons. I played
guitar in a amateur rock band when I was in high school, and stopped
when I graduated from college. Never touch any musical instrument ever
since and I never learned to read music.
My concern is, will I be able to find a teacher, or a certain piano
method that uses exclusively some simplify pieces of JS Bach's work
for practicing or learning ? The only reason I want to learn piano is
to play Bach's music, and I cannot bear the idea of being force into
playing something i don't like (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) I know this
sounds ridiculous since Bach never wrote anything for the piano, but I
think his music sounds heavenly on anything.
I don't mind practing scales, just can't bear to play something I
don't admire.
And it is practical, or does it make any sense to look for a teacher
who loves Bach's music like I do ?
Appreciate your comments.
Jack
Roger Brown
2003-07-26 02:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry
Am very happy to learn that one can start piano with
Bach's work ! I can't wait !
Well I am going to strongly disagree.

I love Bach and I am an organist (who does not play Bach legato although I
agree that legato is important in organ technique generally).

But the piano as we know it today is a quite different instrument and one
which requires a technique very different to that Bach knew. And to regard
music other than Bach (Mozart, Chopin, Beethoven etc.) as time wasting is
utter nonsense. Such music is in fact essential to learning how to make the
piano sing - how to make an intrinsically percussive instrument produce the
wide variety of musical and lyrical sound we associate with the modern
instrument.

To play Bach on the modern piano is admirable. But it is a totally
different medium to that which Bach expected and it requires skills which
spring from later periods and which are best learned from direct experience
of those styles.

My strong advice is that if you wish to play the piano then enjoy and
appreciate it for what it is - and learn to appreciate the wonderful
repertoire it brings to the world of music. That may include Bach (even
though Bach for piano is a form of transcription) but the piano repertoire
does not end there just as the repertoire of the organ does not end at
Bach.

Open your mind. Enjoy music - all music.
--
Roger Brown
***@melbpc.org.au
http://rogerbrown.tripod.com
http://member.melbpc.org.au/~robrown
Sybrand Bakker
2003-07-26 08:39:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 07:29:20 +0200, "Jasper Riedel"
To consider Bach, I agree
that it makes no difference on what instrument his music is played, when the
harpsicord didn't allow to make differences in loudness so allows the modern
piano to express personal feelings about the music, which is not necesarry but
cannot do much harm, too, does it? Regards
You are not serious about that, are you? Bach didn't compose for
piano. PERIOD. Using crescendo and decrescendo has NOTHING to do with
Bach.




Sybrand Bakker

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Sybrand Bakker
2003-07-26 15:08:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:49:32 +0200, "Jasper Riedel"
Right, but J.S. Bach wrote living music, not dead papers. So why not use
crescendo?
Because the crescendo DIDN'T EXIST when JS Bach wrote his music


Sybrand Bakker

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Ken Moore
2003-07-26 10:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Using crescendo and decrescendo has NOTHING to do with
Bach.
Obviously not on harpsichord or organ, and he seems to have been very
sparing with dynamics altogether, but do you have any evidence that this
statement applies to works for clavichord, orchestral instruments or
voices?
--
Ken Moore
***@reading.ac.uk
pg composition student, University of Reading
Sybrand Bakker
2003-07-27 09:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Moore
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Using crescendo and decrescendo has NOTHING to do with
Bach.
Obviously not on harpsichord or organ, and he seems to have been very
sparing with dynamics altogether, but do you have any evidence that this
statement applies to works for clavichord, orchestral instruments or
voices?
When is the first reference to crescendo? With the Mannheim orchestra
of the Stamitzes!


Sybrand Bakker

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Sybrand Bakker
2003-07-27 11:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Wrong, actually, since Bach did compose for the pianoforte. The 3-part
Ricercar from the Musical Offering, for example, which Bach was asked to
write down, was composed at the pianoforte. An 'authentic' performance of
the Musical Offering can be found on the hänsler label, with fortepiano
played by Michael Behringer.
It wasn't 'composed' at the fortepiano of course, it was improvised.
It was composed at a harpsichord, at home. So Bach didn't compose for
the fortepiano. I wouldn't label a performance of the MO with
fortepiano as 'authentic'
When are you going to stop twisting things and tearing them out of
context? What is your interest in doing so?


Sybrand Bakker

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Jasper Riedel
2003-07-27 12:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Wrong, actually, since Bach did compose for the pianoforte. The 3-part
Ricercar from the Musical Offering, for example, which Bach was asked to
write down, was composed at the pianoforte. An 'authentic' performance of
the Musical Offering can be found on the hänsler label, with fortepiano
played by Michael Behringer.
It wasn't 'composed' at the fortepiano of course, it was improvised.
It was composed at a harpsichord, at home. So Bach didn't compose for
the fortepiano. I wouldn't label a performance of the MO with
fortepiano as 'authentic'
When are you going to stop twisting things and tearing them out of
context? What is your interest in doing so?
Anyway, why the heck should music be played on a special instrument?
One might play a piece of music on the organ and another person might play
this same piece of music on the vibraphone. I cannot see anything evil in doing
so. There is a public, too, which might decide which one it loves more than the
other one.

Also, due to personal excitement during performing of choir music, it is nearly
impossible to keep the singers maintaining a single grade of loudness. And how
could that be of any interest to somebody?

It is also best known, that J.S.Bach of all componistst freely has changed
the instrumantation or assignment of pieces of music to a special instrument.

Regards
Sybrand Bakker
2003-07-27 13:36:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:59:15 +0200, "Jasper Riedel"
Post by Jasper Riedel
Anyway, why the heck should music be played on a special instrument?
One might play a piece of music on the organ and another person might play
this same piece of music on the vibraphone. I cannot see anything evil in doing
so. There is a public, too, which might decide which one it loves more than the
other one.
Also, due to personal excitement during performing of choir music, it is nearly
impossible to keep the singers maintaining a single grade of loudness. And how
could that be of any interest to somebody?
It is also best known, that J.S.Bach of all componistst freely has changed
the instrumantation or assignment of pieces of music to a special instrument.
Regards
Music was usually written for a specific instrument. You won't be able
to play a harpsichord piece on organ, it will sound ridiculous.
You won't be able to play a piece for organ with 2 manuals and pedal
on harpsichord.

Your comments show you don't know what you are talking about.


Sybrand Bakker

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Ben Crick
2003-07-27 23:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sybrand Bakker
You won't be able to play a piece for organ with 2 manuals and pedal
on harpsichord.
The late Susi Jeans had a 2 manual and pedal Harpsichord
in the Organ Hall of her residence near Dorking in Surrey,
England (now the HQ of the Royal School of Church Music).
She played to us several works by Bach, and some modern
"Variations on Three Blind Mice" by a friend of hers.

I have here a CD /Pro Cembalo Pleno, Bach on the Pedal
Harpsichord,/ by Douglas Amrine, on Priory PRCD 523.
On it he plays BWV 542 Fantasia and Fugue in g minor;
BWV 733 Meine Seele erhebt den Herrn; BWV 538 the Dorian
Toccata and Fugue; BWV 541 Prelude and Fugue in G major;
BWV 552 Prelude and Fugue in Eb major; and BWV 582 Passacaglia
in c minor.

Most enjoyable.

Ben
--
Ben Crick <***@argonet.co.uk> ZFC Yb
Acorn RPC700 RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126 MB, 4.3 GB HD, x32 CD-ROM, MX56VX
Coming to you from Birchington near Margate in East Kent.

* To be almost saved is to be totally lost.
j***@sonic.net
2003-07-28 00:56:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Crick
Post by Sybrand Bakker
You won't be able to play a piece for organ with 2 manuals and pedal
on harpsichord.
The late Susi Jeans had a 2 manual and pedal Harpsichord
in the Organ Hall of her residence near Dorking in Surrey,
England (now the HQ of the Royal School of Church Music).
She played to us several works by Bach, and some modern
"Variations on Three Blind Mice" by a friend of hers.
I have here a CD /Pro Cembalo Pleno, Bach on the Pedal
Harpsichord,/ by Douglas Amrine, on Priory PRCD 523.
On it he plays BWV 542 Fantasia and Fugue in g minor;
BWV 733 Meine Seele erhebt den Herrn; BWV 538 the Dorian
Toccata and Fugue; BWV 541 Prelude and Fugue in G major;
BWV 552 Prelude and Fugue in Eb major; and BWV 582 Passacaglia
in c minor.
Indeed, pedal clavichords and pedal harsichords were often used as practice
instruments as a substitute for the organ. The churches were very cold in the
winter (no heating in those days) and one didn't have to pay for a pump boy.

Clavichord is the most challenging instrument there is as far as good keyboard
technique is concerned.
Jasper Riedel
2003-07-28 01:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Music was usually written for a specific instrument. You won't be able
to play a harpsichord piece on organ, it will sound ridiculous.
Leonhardt and others have recorded harpsichord pieces on the organ numerous times and
they don't seem to sound ridiculous. I play some myself. But I wouldn't say
that ALL harpischord pieces sound well on the organ.
A nice instrument helps a lot when doing this.
Bach would have loved his music to be brought out on any instrument which is ever,
and this also as often as possibel by using every possible variation.
What else!?
Charles
2003-07-27 13:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sybrand Bakker
It wasn't 'composed' at the fortepiano of course, it was improvised.
A contentious distinction, Sybrand, particularly for those that improvise.
Post by Sybrand Bakker
It was composed at a harpsichord, at home.
Bach disapproved of writing down music at the keyboard (you shouldn't need a
reference for that one, Sybrand).
Post by Sybrand Bakker
So Bach didn't compose for the fortepiano.
Clearly, he fulfilled the Kings request to write down what he had played at
the fortepiano, Sybrand.
Post by Sybrand Bakker
I wouldn't label a performance of the MO with fortepiano as 'authentic'
I wouldn't label anything as authentic, Sybrand, that's why it is written in
quotes.
Post by Sybrand Bakker
When are you going to stop twisting things and tearing them out of
context?
Where is the alleged twisting and tearing, Sybrand?
Post by Sybrand Bakker
What is your interest in doing so?
My interest is correct your false statements, Sybrand. In so doing, I
promote the light of truth.
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Sybrand Bakker
Regards
Charles
Charles
2003-07-27 14:02:09 UTC
Permalink
ROFL. My false statements? You KNOW THEY AREN''T FALSE!!! YOU HAVE
BEEN TOLD MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES BY ME AND MANY OTHERS IN THIS
GROUP.
YOUR CORRECTIONS HAVE *NOTHING* TO DO WITH YOUR SO-CALLED TRUTH. IT IS
YOUR *SELF-CONSTRUCTED* TRUTH, WHICH ONLY YOU BELIEF IN. YOU SOLELY
POST THEM AND CONTINUE POST THEM TO *HARRASS* ME AND *GET ME ANGRY*.
THAT IS THE TRUTH!!!!!!! NOTHING ELSE. YOUR SO-CALLED 'TRUTH' IS NOT
SUPPORTED BY DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE. YOU HAVE MADE IT UP, YOU AND YOU
ALONE, SOLELY TO ANNOY OTHER SUBSCRIBERS TO THIS NEWSGROUP, AND CHASE
THEM AWAY. YOU CHASED AWAY
ZACHARY URAM
,. YOU CHASED AWAY JOHAN VAN VEEN,
AND YOU WILL CONTINUE TO CHASE AWAY OTHER PEOPLE, UNTIL YOU DON'T
HAVE ANY AUDIENCE LEFT. IN THAT CASE YOU WILL HAVE YOUR STUPID
SELF-CONSTRUCTED TRUTH FOR YOURSELF. WOULD YOU REALLY LIKE THAT.
PROBABLY!
GO TO HELL WHERE YOU BELONG AND ENJOY YOURSELF
Sybrand Bakker
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Charles
2003-07-27 14:03:44 UTC
Permalink
ROFL. My false statements? You KNOW THEY AREN''T FALSE!!! YOU HAVE
BEEN TOLD MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES BY ME AND MANY OTHERS IN THIS
GROUP.
YOUR CORRECTIONS HAVE *NOTHING* TO DO WITH YOUR SO-CALLED TRUTH. IT IS
YOUR *SELF-CONSTRUCTED* TRUTH, WHICH ONLY YOU BELIEF IN. YOU SOLELY
POST THEM AND CONTINUE POST THEM TO *HARRASS* ME AND *GET ME ANGRY*.
THAT IS THE TRUTH!!!!!!! NOTHING ELSE. YOUR SO-CALLED 'TRUTH' IS NOT
SUPPORTED BY DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE. YOU HAVE MADE IT UP, YOU AND YOU
ALONE, SOLELY TO ANNOY OTHER SUBSCRIBERS TO THIS NEWSGROUP, AND CHASE
THEM AWAY. YOU CHASED AWAY
ZACHARY URAM
,. YOU CHASED AWAY JOHAN VAN VEEN,
AND YOU WILL CONTINUE TO CHASE AWAY OTHER PEOPLE, UNTIL YOU DON'T
HAVE ANY AUDIENCE LEFT. IN THAT CASE YOU WILL HAVE YOUR STUPID
SELF-CONSTRUCTED TRUTH FOR YOURSELF. WOULD YOU REALLY LIKE THAT.
PROBABLY!
GO TO HELL WHERE YOU BELONG AND ENJOY YOURSELF
Sybrand Bakker
What has your continuing invective to do with the life and influences of
J.S. Bach, Sybrand?

And when are you going to substantiate your claim that "Blume is also
responsible for the biggest musicological failure in the NBA, which is his
edition of the B-minor Mass"?


Regards
Charles
Sybrand Bakker
2003-07-27 15:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles
What has your continuing invective to do with the life and influences of
J.S. Bach, Sybrand?
And when are you going to substantiate your claim that "Blume is also
responsible for the biggest musicological failure in the NBA, which is his
edition of the B-minor Mass"?
You are getting boring. In fact you have always been boring, because
you never substantiated any of your claims, and it is quite clear you
can't substantiate them, as you still didn't respond to Tom Hens, and
you didn't respond to Mr. Chazot. Your silence on their requests is
very much telling. Yes you truly are promoting the light of truth,
which clearly is their truth, not yours. Basically, you don't have any
proof at all and you never will, because you made it all up yourself.
No need to repeat here your out of context citations, they are so
boring I almost know them by heart. You have been proven wrong on all
of them, and I will continue to show you are a liar, until you admit
you have been wrong all the time.

I consider your assertion that I am not a musicologist as slander.

War is on


Sybrand Bakker

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Charles
2003-07-27 16:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Post by Charles
What has your continuing invective to do with the life and influences of
J.S. Bach, Sybrand?
And when are you going to substantiate your claim that "Blume is also
responsible for the biggest musicological failure in the NBA, which is
his edition of the B-minor Mass"?
You are getting boring. In fact you have always been boring, because
you never substantiated any of your claims, and it is quite clear you
can't substantiate them, as you still didn't respond to Tom Hens, and
you didn't respond to Mr. Chazot. Your silence on their requests is
very much telling. Yes you truly are promoting the light of truth,
which clearly is their truth, not yours. Basically, you don't have any
proof at all and you never will, because you made it all up yourself.
No need to repeat here your out of context citations, they are so
boring I almost know them by heart. You have been proven wrong on all
of them, and I will continue to show you are a liar, until you admit
you have been wrong all the time.
I've addressed most of these points elsewhere, Sybrand.
Post by Sybrand Bakker
I consider your assertion that I am not a musicologist as slander.
I made no such assertion, Sybrand.
Post by Sybrand Bakker
War is on
You declare war on the anniversary of Bach's passing!
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Sybrand Bakker
Regards
Charles
Yves C.
2003-07-27 19:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger Brown
Post by Henry
Am very happy to learn that one can start piano with
Bach's work ! I can't wait !
Well I am going to strongly disagree.
Let Henry learn and play what he wants.
The pleasure to play is the most important think, the most motivating
incentive.
Right now I am learnin to play BWV 999, originally written for the lute.
So what ?
Well... I learn it in half the time tha other pieces because I like it
so much.
Do you really think that if Papa Bach had a piano, he wouldn't play his
harpischord or organ works on it ?

Well... last time I talked with him he told me he prefered a motivated
pianist to a dull harpsichordist ;)

Yves
Yves C.
2003-07-25 10:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry
I am a 38 years old male thinking of starting piano lessons. I played
guitar in a amateur rock band when I was in high school, and stopped
when I graduated from college. Never touch any musical instrument ever
since and I never learned to read music.
My concern is, will I be able to find a teacher, or a certain piano
method that uses exclusively some simplify pieces of JS Bach's work
for practicing or learning ?
I am also an adult beginner. My experience is you don't need simplified
pieces. There are some Bach pieces you will be able to learn right at
the beginning ... at a very slow pace : about four months for well
tempered clavier prelude #1.
This is at least the method used by my piano teacher: starting with
non-simplified, pieces.
Now, after one year, I am learning a little prelude BWV 999.
Now, the difficulty will be to find the right teacher.

Yves
~john
2003-07-25 17:08:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yves C.
Now, after one year, I am learning a little prelude BWV 999.
Nice - there's a midi of it here:

http://freddie.spb.ru/barock/midi/
--
John
Gimp Photo Editing
http://www.ice-nine.co.uk
Doug Wedel
2003-07-25 17:04:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry
The only reason I want to learn piano is
to play Bach's music, and I cannot bear the idea of being force into
playing something i don't like (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) I know this
sounds ridiculous since Bach never wrote anything for the piano, but I
think his music sounds heavenly on anything.
I sympathize entirely. I began earlier this year with the
marches, minuets and polonaises from the Anna Magdalena
Notebook. I have about 20 of them under my belt now--
I can play Bach for half an hour now without repeating
myself, an immense pleasure!
Chloe
2003-07-25 17:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Wedel
Post by Henry
The only reason I want to learn piano is
to play Bach's music, and I cannot bear the idea of being force into
playing something i don't like (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) I know this
sounds ridiculous since Bach never wrote anything for the piano, but I
think his music sounds heavenly on anything.
I sympathize entirely. I began earlier this year with the
marches, minuets and polonaises from the Anna Magdalena
Notebook. I have about 20 of them under my belt now--
I can play Bach for half an hour now without repeating
myself, an immense pleasure!
Part of Bach's genius was his ability to create a sublimely beautiful thing
of even the most simple music. I had not played the organ in many years when
I started back into serious practicing this spring. I'm relearning the Eight
Little Preludes and Fugues, which are somewhat analogous to the Notebook in
that Bach is thought to have written them as teaching pieces for his sons.
In quality they far outshine most of the contemporary music of the period,
and they're not even the "big" works.
Ken Moore
2003-07-25 08:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry
The only reason I want to learn piano is
to play Bach's music, and I cannot bear the idea of being force into
playing something i don't like (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) I know this
sounds ridiculous since Bach never wrote anything for the piano, but I
think his music sounds heavenly on anything.
Why don't you take up clavichord or harpsichord if you don't want to
play anything for which a piano would be appropriate?
--
Ken Moore
***@reading.ac.uk
pg composition student, University of Reading
Greg M. Silverman
2003-07-25 20:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henry
I am a 38 years old male thinking of starting piano lessons. I played
guitar in a amateur rock band when I was in high school, and stopped
when I graduated from college. Never touch any musical instrument ever
since and I never learned to read music.
My concern is, will I be able to find a teacher, or a certain piano
method that uses exclusively some simplify pieces of JS Bach's work
for practicing or learning ? The only reason I want to learn piano is
to play Bach's music, and I cannot bear the idea of being force into
playing something i don't like (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) I know this
sounds ridiculous since Bach never wrote anything for the piano, but I
think his music sounds heavenly on anything.
I don't mind practing scales, just can't bear to play something I
don't admire.
And it is practical, or does it make any sense to look for a teacher
who loves Bach's music like I do ?
Appreciate your comments.
Jack
You might want to read Noah Adams' book "Piano Lessons." A very
interesting book on starting piano as an adult. Then, check out Thad
Carhart's book "Piano Shop on the Left Bank." It will give you a new
appreciation of the piano. And, I wouldn't write off Mozart so soon. A
lot of people would say that Mozart was the successor to Bach in
genius. It may be true, but regardless, Mozart's music is in the same
vein as Bach's: heavenly. Just my two cents worth. :-)

gms--



gms--
Sybrand Bakker
2003-07-25 21:13:17 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:50:58 -0500, "Greg M. Silverman"
Post by Greg M. Silverman
A
lot of people would say that Mozart was the successor to Bach in
genius. It may be true, but regardless, Mozart's music is in the same
vein as Bach's: heavenly. Just my two cents worth. :-)
You can't be serious about that. When Mozart is badly played, the
music is destroyed. When Bach is badly played (by GG and the likes),
however worse and awful it sounds, it is still Bach.
Karl Barth is wrong: the angels might play Mozart, but only because
they don't know better



Sybrand Bakker

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Annie
2003-07-27 05:30:53 UTC
Permalink
What is wrong with the way GG plays Bach? Just curious....I wish I
could play that badly.....however, I could do without the hum-alongs....

Annie
Post by Sybrand Bakker
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:50:58 -0500, "Greg M. Silverman"
Post by Greg M. Silverman
A
lot of people would say that Mozart was the successor to Bach in
genius. It may be true, but regardless, Mozart's music is in the same
vein as Bach's: heavenly. Just my two cents worth. :-)
You can't be serious about that. When Mozart is badly played, the
music is destroyed. When Bach is badly played (by GG and the likes),
however worse and awful it sounds, it is still Bach.
Karl Barth is wrong: the angels might play Mozart, but only because
they don't know better
Sybrand Bakker
anti-spam maatregel
om te antwoorden verwijder '-verwijderdit' uit mijn e-mail adres
Annie
2003-07-29 04:16:44 UTC
Permalink
what player(s)---in your estimation---achieve authentic performances?
Post by Annie
What is wrong with the way GG plays Bach? Just curious....I wish I
could play that badly.....however, I could do without the hum-alongs....
Annie
He is usually deliberately ignoring baroque articulation and phrasing
practices. Doing so he accents notes, quite often off the beat, that
shouldn't be accented at all and he ruins the structure of the music,
as he is using incorrect phrasing.
Sybrand Bakker
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Sybrand Bakker
2003-07-29 18:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Annie
what player(s)---in your estimation---achieve authentic performances?
People like Gustav Leonhardt, Ton Koopman, Bob van Asperen, Pierre
Hantai, Andreas Staier, Pieter-Jan Belder (to mention a few)


Sybrand Bakker

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Annie
2003-07-30 05:17:37 UTC
Permalink
I am only familiar with Leonhardt...how about Landowska? I am not,
however, I big fan of the harpischord and do like Bach "inauthentically"
played on the piano....how about Andreas Schiff?
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Post by Annie
what player(s)---in your estimation---achieve authentic performances?
People like Gustav Leonhardt, Ton Koopman, Bob van Asperen, Pierre
Hantai, Andreas Staier, Pieter-Jan Belder (to mention a few)
Sybrand Bakker
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Greg M. Silverman
2003-07-30 15:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Annie
I am only familiar with Leonhardt...how about Landowska? I am not,
however, I big fan of the harpischord and do like Bach "inauthentically"
played on the piano....how about Andreas Schiff?
On the way into work this morning I heard Trevor Pinnock conducting from
the harpsichord with the English Concert in a performance of BWV 1054.
Quite a lovely performance.

I would also recommend the recording of violinist Andrew Manze and
harpsichordist Richard Egarr performing the complete violin sonatas of
JSB. Very nice!

gms--
Post by Annie
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Post by Annie
what player(s)---in your estimation---achieve authentic performances?
People like Gustav Leonhardt, Ton Koopman, Bob van Asperen, Pierre
Hantai, Andreas Staier, Pieter-Jan Belder (to mention a few)
Sybrand Bakker
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om te antwoorden verwijder '-verwijderdit' uit mijn e-mail adres
Julien Pierre
2003-07-26 07:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Jack,
Post by Henry
I am a 38 years old male thinking of starting piano lessons. I played
guitar in a amateur rock band when I was in high school, and stopped
when I graduated from college. Never touch any musical instrument ever
since and I never learned to read music.
My concern is, will I be able to find a teacher, or a certain piano
method that uses exclusively some simplify pieces of JS Bach's work
for practicing or learning ? The only reason I want to learn piano is
to play Bach's music, and I cannot bear the idea of being force into
playing something i don't like (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) I know this
sounds ridiculous since Bach never wrote anything for the piano, but I
think his music sounds heavenly on anything.
I don't mind practing scales, just can't bear to play something I
don't admire.
And it is practical, or does it make any sense to look for a teacher
who loves Bach's music like I do ?
Motivation will go a long way. If you like Bach and want to learn it on
the piano, don't let anyone tell you it can't or shouldn't be done : try
it, and don't waste a minute ! You'll wonder what you ever lived for before.

As others have pointed out, Bach was a teacher and many of his works
were written with the purpose of teaching. Bach wrote lots of simple
pieces that are very enjoyable to play.

I am a Bach lover like you. I also listen to a lot of other composers
from other periods, but Bach is the one I listen to the most, by a very
long shot, and the one I have increasingly wanted to play over the years.

I took the plunge last year. This is my story :.

I had solfège for 1hr a week for 7 years (ages 7-14), as is mandatory in
public schools in France. I played the recorder, but only as much as I
needed to have passing grades. I could never sing at all. What I
retained from this was primarily the ability to read the treble clef.

At age 14 I decided to take on piano lessons. I already had an interest
in classical music, but not so much in baroque or Bach then. However, I
didn't like my teacher, and I didn't take the time to practice at home.
Teaching myself computer prorgramming (my profession today) was more
important. School assignments were second. Piano was interesting too,
but after I was done with the two priorities, it was about 11pm or
midnight, and my father would never allow me to practice that late. I
dropped piano lessons after less than a year, unable to play anything at
all.

It did not occur to me to play music for the next 12 years.

Last year, I had made the determination that I wanted to learn music
again, and I wanted to play Bach.
It wasn't clear to me that piano was the instrument for me. Indeed I
hesitated between a harpsichord and a piano.

I was not sure if this was going to work for me, and I was not ready to
spend the big bucks. So, in april 2002, I bought a $400 Casio keyboard,
and lots of sheet music from Bach. I tried to teach myself, as I did my
profession. I realized that I was not going anywhere. Unlike a computer
keyboard, there is no delete key on a music keyboard - you can't go back
in time. Pitch or rythm errors are especially problematic in playing
Bach. They cannot be hidden. I was very frustrated, but I did not give up.

In July 2002, I resold the Casio keyboard for half its price, and bought
a Roland FP-3 weighted keyboard. This felt much more like a real piano.
This was about a $1200 investment with the stand. I immediately
interviewed a local teacher whose name I got from the music store, and
started taking lessons with him.

He started me on the Alfred method at level 2. However, there was not
much music that was of interest to me in it, and quickly I brought my
own sheet music and he helped me figure out some simple Bach pieces, in
addition to helping my technique. Soon enough I could play Minuet in G
and Musette in D. The first invention took a few more months.

By fall, I knew that I was going to be playing music for a long time,
and I started shopping for an acoustic piano. For Christmas, I wrote my
biggest check yet, and bought a new 5'7 Schimmel grand piano.

After that I did a little Mozart (Ah vous-dirai-je maman, better known
in the US as Twinkle Twinkle Little star, and the first variation on
it). Some Clementi sonata, the first page of a Mozart sonata in C.

But I kept coming back to Bach :-) I wanted to play the Goldberg
variations - I had told my teacher as much on the day I interviewed him,
and after I showed him the sheet music, he said he would get me started
on one within months.

So I started, and struggled with variation 1. Eventually, after much
practice, I got to the point of being able to play the first page
relatively cleanly. In march 2003, my teacher told me that I should be
taking lessons with another teacher. His favorite style of music was
jazz, as a composer, and I would be served better by a teacher who knew
more about all the instricacies of Bach fingerings and ornamentation. He
gave me 3 referrals at the end of that month.

For a variety of personal reasons (mainly going abroad for an extended
period), I waited three more months before calling any the referrals. I
started taking lessons again just two weeks ago. I am going along nicely
- no one or nothing can ever stand in the way of me playing the Goldberg
variations :-).

If you are interested, I maintain a web page of my music that contains
my amateur recordings of Bach : http://www.madbrain.com/music.html .
Retrospectively, I think some of them are quite bad, especially the
earlier ones. But I still keep them on, because it's fun to listen to
again and then hear the progress on the newer recordings. I just made
one of the Goldberg today that I'm proud of (see the very bottom of the
page). I will probably hate it in another 2 months.

While I admit to having more background in music at the time I started
over piano, I hope the story is helpful to you or others.

The advice I have for you as an adult student is :

1) Plan lots and lots of practice, every day. Do it whenever you have
any spare time, day or night. Never give up !

2) If you are unsure about the right keyboard instrument for you to play
Bach on, my recommendation is to start with a digital piano with
weighted keys.

Like all electronic instruments, you can practice at any time of the day
or night on a digital piano without bothering your neighbors, as long as
you don't mind putting headphones. I find it very important not to have
any excuse not to practice. I still use my digital quite a bit for this
very reason, even though I have a very nice acoustic also.

The reason to get one with weighted keys is because most piano teachers
will not teach you if you use a digital with unweighted keys, and for
good reason. If you get a keyboard with unweighted keys, you will not be
able to play on an acoustic piano. Some teachers may not want to teach
you if you use any kind of digital at all; just find another teacher if
you run into that.

The other great thing about the digital piano is that you can switch to
the harpsichord and organ sounds which are natural for many pieces from
Bach. When doing so, make sure to disable the sensitivity of the
keyboard so the volume is the same for all notes. It will sound very
unnatural otherwise.

Have fun !
Yves C.
2003-07-27 19:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Some teachers may not want to teach you if you use any kind of digital
at all; just find another teacher if you run into that.
One reason to this is that many teachers do not understand the
difference between a digital piano, a synthesizer or any other
electronic keyboard.
Yves
Safir
2003-08-20 16:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julien Pierre
So I started, and struggled with variation 1. Eventually, after much
practice, I got to the point of being able to play the first page
relatively cleanly. In march 2003, my teacher told me that I should be
taking lessons with another teacher. His favorite style of music was
jazz, as a composer, and I would be served better by a teacher who knew
more about all the instricacies of Bach fingerings and ornamentation. He
gave me 3 referrals at the end of that month.
Hi,
I am also an adult learner. How long did you work on Invention 1 ?
I am fighting with it right now (i almost play the first page ...)

Thanks
Safir
Ioannis
2003-08-20 20:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Safir
Hi,
I am also an adult learner. How long did you work on Invention 1 ?
Let's see... I started on that at the age of 12. 1976.
I'm still working on it.
I've started on The Little Preludes and Fugues at about age 14, in 1978,
and I am still working on them.

Sometimes I wonder how much time it takes to learn, say, a thing such as
Toccatta #1.

I am thinking of buying a TARDIS, so I can make it to my diploma exams
in 2004, by bending time.
--
Ioannis
http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/jgal/
___________________________________________
Eventually, _everything_ is understandable.
f***@m0x0.conservatory.com
2003-08-20 20:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ioannis
I am thinking of buying a TARDIS, so I can make it to my diploma exams
in 2004, by bending time.
Ah, if you could bend time, you could just play the tocatta with 1
finger as slow as you wanted :-)

--
Safir
2003-08-22 08:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Safir
Hi,
I am also an adult learner. How long did you work on Invention 1 ?
Let's see... I started on that at the age of 12. 1976.
I'm still working on it.
I was meaning
how long to play it from memory and flawlessly ...

(not how long to play it like Glen Gould :-)
Julien Pierre
2003-08-24 22:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Safir
I am also an adult learner. How long did you work on Invention 1 ?
I am fighting with it right now (i almost play the first page ...)
I spent several months before I could play it all, although my teacher
did have me work on other things at the same time (exercises).
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