Discussion:
Bach and the Fux 'Gradus ad Parnassum'
(too old to reply)
sagespath
2007-06-07 16:02:26 UTC
Permalink
If we take only the 18th century sources into account we gain the
impression that Fux is a very minor player. These sources were from
the next generation- the age of 'Empfindsamkeit'. These were the punk
rockers of their day who, like their counterparts today had neither
time nor patience for 'dray as dust' theories.
These writers tended to project their own views on to Bach instead
of presenting his view. The sources must be set into perspective by
musical analysis.
The events in not just fugues but most all of Bach's music are
themes stacked in layers and put through permutations. Two themes
give double counterpoint, three themes give triple counterpoint with
six permutations. These take on a different mood as they pass through
Bach's usual key scheme. The quoted sources, as evinced from their
compositions, just didn't get it.
Haydn and Mozart had only a partial grasp of the principles of
double and triple counterpoint. Beethoven was frustrated with Haydn's
unsystematic approach to teaching it. Mozart discovered the '48' late
in life and it changed and enriched his works. Most of Mozart is
disfigured by lame 'Alberti' basses and came to recognize the
deficiency. Schubert came to the same conclusion about his own work.
The Fux 'Gradus' tells how to do it. Whoever disses Fux is
revealing his or her own amateurism.
I can compose a fugue in Bach's own musical language so I know what
I'm talking about.
jack freeman
2007-06-09 17:36:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by sagespath
I can compose a fugue in Bach's own musical language so I know what
I'm talking about.
What - you can imitate someone's compositional style (and of
course we can only guess what this might sound like) and from
that assertion we are to understand that you are an authority
whose words should be taken, ipso facto, without question?

You expect way too much.
sagespath
2007-06-12 02:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by jack freeman
Post by sagespath
I can compose a fugue in Bach's own musical language so I know what
I'm talking about.
What - you can imitate someone's compositional style (and of
course we can only guess what this might sound like) and from
that assertion we are to understand that you are an authority
whose words should be taken, ipso facto, without question?
You expect way too much.
Well, what is your question? My point is that a reading of the
primary sources as being true by definition (like some see the bible)
can be erroneous if we ignore, or are unable to analyze other relevant
factors. What is your background?
sagespath
2007-06-16 00:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by jack freeman
Post by sagespath
I can compose a fugue in Bach's own musical language so I know what
I'm talking about.
What - you can imitate someone's compositional style (and of
course we can only guess what this might sound like) and from
that assertion we are to understand that you are an authority
whose words should be taken, ipso facto, without question?
You expect way too much.
It sounds like a Bach fugue. I have had the opportunity several times
to play 3 fugues for visitors, two by Bach, one by me. To date no one
has been able to guess which was mine. Years ago I wanted to perform
my hour long work at a music school where I was unknown. As a veteran
student I knew that they wouldn't allow it.
I told them that I had a recently discovered work by a 19th century
German (A. A.. Klengel) and wanted to give the world premiere. The
concert was a huge success and none of the audience (including several
Ph.D.s) guessed that I was the composer.
If one studies the underlying principles, it is possible to compose
in any style, as we study a foreign language. Bach was tough, it took
me 40 years
Ioannis
2007-06-16 14:29:40 UTC
Permalink
"sagespath" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Post by sagespath
It sounds like a Bach fugue. I have had the opportunity several times
to play 3 fugues for visitors, two by Bach, one by me. To date no one
has been able to guess which was mine. Years ago I wanted to
perform
Post by sagespath
my hour long work at a music school where I was unknown. As a
veteran
Post by sagespath
student I knew that they wouldn't allow it.
I told them that I had a recently discovered work by a 19th
century
Post by sagespath
German (A. A.. Klengel) and wanted to give the world premiere. The
concert was a huge success and none of the audience (including
several
Post by sagespath
Ph.D.s) guessed that I was the composer.
If one studies the underlying principles, it is possible to
compose
Post by sagespath
in any style, as we study a foreign language. Bach was tough, it took
me 40 years
Let me tell you something, all in good faith.

You are neither the first nor the last whose fugues may be mistaken
for Bach. When I was a sophomore at the University of Illinois, I also
fooled my piano professor (a Ph.D. from Julliard) and the head of the
music department (also a Ph.D. from Julliard and a performer with the
symphonies of Denver and Detroit).

I had sequenced one of my fugues on a cheap program for Mac
(MusicWorks) and after listening to it, my piano professor remarked
"You KNOW I don't like Bach played electronically..."

The head of the department remarked "I have never heard this Bach
fugue before. Where is it from?"

The purpose of a good Bachian fugue is neither personal gain nor
glorification or a boastful attitude. A good Bachian fugue serves a
very distinct purpose, and this purpose has nothing to do with the
innanities of personal gain.

If you are gifted enough to write a good Bachian fugue, this should
fill you with humility and make you modest enough to not really admit
it.

Having said that, I seriously doubt that your fugues are trully
Bachian, but I will reserve judgement until you provide an .mp3 URL.
Till then, feel free to speculate all you want.
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
----------------------------------------------------------
"There's ALWAYS a mistake somewhere"
sagespath
2007-07-13 03:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by sagespath
Post by jack freeman
Post by sagespath
I can compose a fugue in Bach's own musical language so I know what
I'm talking about.
What - you can imitate someone's compositional style (and of
course we can only guess what this might sound like) and from
that assertion we are to understand that you are an authority
whose words should be taken, ipso facto, without question?
You expect way too much.
It sounds like a Bach fugue. I have had the opportunity several times
to play 3 fugues for visitors, two by Bach, one by me. To date no one
has been able to guess which was mine. Years ago I wanted to perform
my hour long work at a music school where I was unknown. As a veteran
student I knew that they wouldn't allow it.
I told them that I had a recently discovered work by a 19th century
German (A. A.. Klengel) and wanted to give the world premiere. The
concert was a huge success and none of the audience (including several
Ph.D.s) guessed that I was the composer.
If one studies the underlying principles, it is possible to compose
in any style, as we study a foreign language. Bach was tough, it took
me 40 years
On the basis of what do you say I do this for personal gain? I've
given all for nothing. It's good to hear that I'm not the only one.
You start out with a negative attitude and make up lies to justify it.
Ioannis
2007-06-10 22:56:48 UTC
Permalink
"sagespath" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Post by sagespath
I can compose a fugue in Bach's own musical language so I know what
I'm talking about.
Let's hear your Bach-like compositions, then.

.mp3 link?
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
----------------------------------------------------------
"There's ALWAYS a mistake somewhere"
sagespath
2007-06-12 02:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ioannis
[snip]
Post by sagespath
I can compose a fugue in Bach's own musical language so I know what
I'm talking about.
Let's hear your Bach-like compositions, then.
.mp3 link?
--
I.N. Galidakis ---http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
----------------------------------------------------------
"There's ALWAYS a mistake somewhere"
Recording is in progress. The fugue in question is part of an hour
long work in various 18th century styles. I could email the score of
the fugue. Thanks for asking.
Ioannis
2007-06-12 02:54:05 UTC
Permalink
"sagespath" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Post by sagespath
Recording is in progress. The fugue in question is part of an hour
long work in various 18th century styles. I could email the score of
the fugue. Thanks for asking.
When your recording is ready, please post an .mp3 link.
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
----------------------------------------------------------
"There's ALWAYS a mistake somewhere"
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