Bach the greatest?

[leclair]

His only serious rival is Mozart.Instead of theorising about concepts
of greatness, just listen to 2 arias from Die Entfuhrung namely numbers
10 and 11(Traurigkeit.... and Martern aller Arten) and then listen to
Bach's Cantatas 100 and 198. You can now detect different levels of
greatness.

[Sybrand Bakker]

Post by leclair
His only serious rival is Mozart.Instead of theorising about concepts
of greatness, just listen to 2 arias from Die Entfuhrung namely numbers
10 and 11(Traurigkeit.... and Martern aller Arten) and then listen to
Bach's Cantatas 100 and 198. You can now detect different levels of
greatness.

Sorry to disagree. Though I love Mozart, and I do consider him a great
composer, I don't think he is anywhere in Bach's shadow.
The Dutch pianist Cor de Groot once made the very valid remark, that
if someone doesn't know how to play Mozart, the music is being killed
in his hands. However, if someone doesn't know/can't play Bach, it is
still Bach, even if it is not played in the right tempo.
You actually can ruin a Mozart piano concerto easily, I don't know
whether that is possible with a harpsichord concerto by Bach.

If I really would need to mention a composer equal to Bach, I would
mention Josquin des Prez.

Sybrand Bakker

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[Jackson K. Eskew]

Beethoven is most definitely in Bach's league.

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Beethoven is most definitely in Bach's league.

Beethoven wrote relatively few pieces in comparison to Bach. Also, he
didn't have a great feel for vocal music. Other than the 9th, I am
very unimpressed with his choral music. Even the Missa Solemnis is a
little flat in my opinion.

There are also personality issues. Beethoven didn't always make his
music seamless. Quite frequently, you can hear the transitions from
one section to the other. I think his music lacks the "Great Line" of
Bach's music. My opinion is Beethoven didn't bother. If people had
trouble following his line of thinking, then it was their problem.


Jimmy Boy

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Beethoven is most definitely in Bach's league.

Beethoven wrote relatively few pieces in comparison to Bach. Also, he
didn't have a great feel for vocal music.

When I say that Beethoven is in Bach's league, I'm speaking
qualitatively, not quantitatively (the 9th, or the 3rd, or the 5th, or
the 7th alone would put Beethoven in league with the greatest composers
- similarly, had Dostoevsky written only The Brothers Karamazov, he'd
be in league with the greatest writers). I'd also dispute any assertion
that Beethoven didn't have a great feel for vocal music. The 9th alone
refutes this. But I agree that Bach's work overall is better in this
regard, and that for Beethoven it was a matter of deficient will, not
deficient talent.

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Beethoven is most definitely in Bach's league.

Beethoven wrote relatively few pieces in comparison to Bach. Also, he
didn't have a great feel for vocal music.

When I say that Beethoven is in Bach's league, I'm speaking
qualitatively, not quantitatively (the 9th, or the 3rd, or the 5th, or
the 7th alone would put Beethoven in league with the greatest composers
- similarly, had Dostoevsky written only The Brothers Karamazov, he'd
be in league with the greatest writers). I'd also dispute any assertion
that Beethoven didn't have a great feel for vocal music. The 9th alone
refutes this. But I agree that Bach's work overall is better in this
regard, and that for Beethoven it was a matter of deficient will, not
deficient talent.

I would rank Beethoven second to Bach. Whereas Mozart is very
pleasing, I don't think his music is as deep and profound as Beethoven.
So, there you have my top three:

Bach, Beethoven and Mozart.

In the fourth place I am inclined to place Wagner. However, his music
is bizarre at times. He can write a period of great beauty and
following it up with something unintelligible...

Jimmy Boy

[Sybrand Bakker]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
In the fourth place I am inclined to place Wagner. However, his music
is bizarre at times. He can write a period of great beauty and
following it up with something unintelligible...
Jimmy Boy

Apart from that he was a rabiate antisemite.

Sybrand Bakker

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[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Sybrand Bakker

Post by j***@yahoo.com
In the fourth place I am inclined to place Wagner. However, his music
is bizarre at times. He can write a period of great beauty and
following it up with something unintelligible...
Jimmy Boy

Apart from that he was a rabiate antisemite.
Sybrand Bakker
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I try not to think about the man when I listen to his music. However,
he did say good things about Bach.

Jimmy Boy

[Ioannis]

<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
[snip]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
I would rank Beethoven second to Bach. Whereas Mozart is very
pleasing, I don't think his music is as deep and profound as Beethoven.
Bach, Beethoven and Mozart.
In the fourth place I am inclined to place Wagner. However, his music
is bizarre at times. He can write a period of great beauty and
following it up with something unintelligible...

I believe in the Holy Trinity of three "B"'s:

Bach, the Father
Beethoven, the Son
Brahms, the Holy Spirit

One only needs to listen to Symphonies 1 and 2 by Brahms, to discern the
IMMENSE musical spirit of this man. It is not a coincidence his first symphony
is considered "the 10-th" of LVB, in terms of depth. But there are others.
Here's my list of favourites: Vivaldi (whose works were studied in detail by
JSB), Scarlatti (who has a tremedous output in sonatas), Rachmaninoff (whose
piano concertos are almost unplayable but beautiful), Mozart (whose Requiem
almost reaches the quality of the Master's music), Prokoviev, Tchaikovsky,
Mendelssohn, Mussorgsky, Wagner, Verdi (whose Overtures, Operas and Requiem
are fantasic), and Schumann (whose music has a different, deep and insane
quality to it) in no particular order.

I would ESPECIALLY note Mendelssohn, whose efforts revived the music of the
Master. And I would also put Carl-Philip-Emmanuel Bach in the list as well.
Being the son of Bach was no easy thing, and making the list after your father
has been the greatest, is one big achievement.

There are also many others, who achieve a great spirit only some times, but
nevertheless they are fascinating. Of course nobody comes close to the Master.
Every other composer's music is distinctly human. JSB's music is divine.

Post by j***@yahoo.com
Jimmy Boy

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Ioannis
Bach, the Father
Beethoven, the Son
Brahms, the Holy Spirit

For me, after Bach there is Brahms, then there are pieces.

Brahms held Bach to be the highest.

There is a great story: after one of his piano recitals somewhere in
Germany, the richest man in town gave a supper party in Brahms honor.
At one point the host stood, lifted a bottle of wine, a very expensive
Rhine wine, and made this toast, "What this wine is to wine, Brahms is
to music."

Post by Ioannis
From the back of the room the slightly tipsy voice of Brahms rang out,

"Then open a bottle of Bach!"

In his last months, after being diagnosed with cancer, Brahms eased his
final days by reading through Bach cantatas. Not at the piano, just
reading them.

Andrew

[Sybrand Bakker]

Post by Ioannis
Here's my list of favourites: Vivaldi (whose works were studied in detail by
JSB),

This is currently being heavily contested in amongst others a recent
Baerenreiter monograph on the Brandenburgs. It seems Bach first got
into Tommaso Albinoni, and only came to know Vivaldi when his concerto
style was already more or less mature.

Sybrand Bakker

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[Passacaglia88]

They are different.
That means, In my opinion it's completely unnecessary to compare Bach,
Beethoven and Mozart. I think they are the greatest names of music at
all, I don't think we could easily find an objective range, according
to we could place them after each other.

On the other hand, there must be something we can objectively mete
musical worth... after all, I don't think Bach and Brtiney Spears could
be compared at all. Unfortunately, I haven't found this objective range
yet.

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Beethoven is most definitely in Bach's league.

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by Passacaglia88
On the other hand, there must be something we can objectively mete
musical worth... after all, I don't think Bach and Brtiney Spears could
be compared at all. Unfortunately, I haven't found this objective range
yet.

Yes! Contrary to the catechism of today's dictatorship of relativism
and its bromide that "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," there are
indeed objective criteria of beauty. Illumination of the transcendent
is chief among these criteria.

For more on this, I recommend E.G. Schumacher's great book, A Guide For
The Perplexed: http://tinyurl.com/eqjsx

"To enjoy the things we ought and to hate the things we ought has the
greatest bearing on virtue of character."

-Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, Book X, ch. 1

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by leclair
His only serious rival is Mozart.Instead of theorising about concepts
of greatness, just listen to 2 arias from Die Entfuhrung namely numbers
10 and 11(Traurigkeit.... and Martern aller Arten) and then listen to
Bach's Cantatas 100 and 198. You can now detect different levels of
greatness.

I agree with Sybrand, Bach was in a class all of his own.

Andrew

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Andrew Schulman

Post by leclair
His only serious rival is Mozart.Instead of theorising about concepts
of greatness, just listen to 2 arias from Die Entfuhrung namely numbers
10 and 11(Traurigkeit.... and Martern aller Arten) and then listen to
Bach's Cantatas 100 and 198. You can now detect different levels of
greatness.

I agree with Sybrand, Bach was in a class all of his own.
Andrew

Bach was from another planet. When he was on the top of his game, it
is a magical experience. There are sections from Mozart's requiem,
Perlogosi's Stabat Matar, and Beethoven's Ninth which come close, but
no one could consistantly create such sublime music as Bach.

Jimmy Boy

[Jackson K. Eskew]

I place Verdi, Puccini, and Shostakovich in the top ten as well.

[Sybrand Bakker]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
Bach was from another planet.

I don't think so. He was as much a child of his time as anyone else.
Apart from that, he didn't compose for posterity at all.
He wouldn't have been the same composer though, if he wouldn't have
been stemming from a family that provided so many local town
musicians, that their last name became a name for the profession.
Musicians in Thuringia were simply called 'Die Baache' as almost every
organist was a member of the Bach family.

Sybrand Bakker

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[Praetorius]

hmmm...try this, then.
Bach is the greatest composer;
Wagner is the greatest creative artist.
The idea is not as contradictory as one might think.