Seeing the Whole Composition before Writing

[j***@yahoo.com]

I think this issue is related to the movie Amadeus. The movie dipicted
Saleri as saying that Mozart composed the music entirely in his head
before he wrote then down. However, this has been shown to be false.
A good example of this is the sketches that Sussrmayer used to finish
the Requiem.

The question of whether Bach composed the music in his head is unknown.
It is believed that when he wrote his Cantatas he had the whole layout
fairly well set. The tonality, themes and organization of the works
were largely finished before he put them to paper. However, during the
writing out of the work he often "tinkered" with the details. This is
consistant to his practice of making modifications to his works when he
returned to them at a later date.

I believe that Bach could have easily composed the works in his head.
However, his personality often led him to change his mind. Personally
when I write music I have the same problem. Often there are multiple
possibilities that sound reasonable. Which one is best can be a matter
of taste or even mood.

Jimmy Boy

[s***@yahoo.com]

Your remarks about Mozart do not depict Mozart's compositional process
correctly.
Mozart wrote down the outer voices first, followed by the inner voices.
The chords needed were already clear.
As far as you Sussmayer finished sketches, they weren't real sketches:
ie for the completed parts, Sussmayer only needed to provide
instrumentation.

So Salieri's remark is not far off the mark.

[Margaret Mikulska]

Post by s***@yahoo.com
Your remarks about Mozart do not depict Mozart's compositional process
correctly.
Mozart wrote down the outer voices first, followed by the inner voices.
The chords needed were already clear.
ie for the completed parts, Sussmayer only needed to provide
instrumentation.

But Süssmayr had to write Sanctus, Benedictus, and Agnus Dei. Mozart
didn't even start working on these movements.

All in all, Mozart wrote only about 1/3 of the Requiem, the rest had to
be composed by somebody else (Süssmayr, but modern completion also exist).

-MM

[Margaret Mikulska]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
I think this issue is related to the movie Amadeus. The movie dipicted
Saleri as saying that Mozart composed the music entirely in his head
before he wrote then down. However, this has been shown to be false.

Indeed, this is false.

Post by j***@yahoo.com
A good example of this is the sketches that Sussrmayer used to finish
the Requiem.

There is only one sketch to the Requiem and it's not known whether
Süssmayr knew it.

-MM

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Margaret Mikulska

Post by j***@yahoo.com
I think this issue is related to the movie Amadeus. The movie dipicted
Saleri as saying that Mozart composed the music entirely in his head
before he wrote then down. However, this has been shown to be false.

Indeed, this is false.

Post by j***@yahoo.com
A good example of this is the sketches that Sussrmayer used to finish
the Requiem.

There is only one sketch to the Requiem and it's not known whether
Süssmayr knew it.

"According to Landon in "Mozart's Last Year, 1791," only the Requiem
aeternam (Introitus) was fully scored by Mozart. All the other sections
were done in what was called his "particella sketch". These sketches
totaled 99 pages -- an incredible, nearly impossible amount of music to
be composed in this fashion in less than a month. Also, since the
Requiem sections were not written in order, the Lachrymosa, an early
section, in fact, was the very last music Mozart composed."

http://www.keenintuition.com/World/Mozart_.html

There were sketches to the Requiem. Constanze gave Sussrmayer the
sketches to complete the mass. She needed the money of the commission.


Jimmy Boy

[John Briggs]

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Post by Margaret Mikulska

Post by j***@yahoo.com
I think this issue is related to the movie Amadeus. The movie
dipicted Saleri as saying that Mozart composed the music entirely
in his head before he wrote then down. However, this has been
shown to be false.

Indeed, this is false.

Post by j***@yahoo.com
A good example of this is the sketches that Sussrmayer used to
finish the Requiem.

There is only one sketch to the Requiem and it's not known whether
Süssmayr knew it.

"According to Landon in "Mozart's Last Year, 1791," only the Requiem
aeternam (Introitus) was fully scored by Mozart. All the other
sections were done in what was called his "particella sketch". These
sketches totaled 99 pages -- an incredible, nearly impossible amount
of music to be composed in this fashion in less than a month. Also,
since the Requiem sections were not written in order, the Lachrymosa,
an early section, in fact, was the very last music Mozart composed."
http://www.keenintuition.com/World/Mozart_.html
There were sketches to the Requiem. Constanze gave Sussrmayer the
sketches to complete the mass. She needed the money of the
commission.

That is a somewhat baffling statement (and it has certainly baffled you). I
think you will find that the correct translation (particularly in this
context) of "particella" is 'short score'.

HTH

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by John Briggs

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Post by Margaret Mikulska

Post by j***@yahoo.com
I think this issue is related to the movie Amadeus. The movie
dipicted Saleri as saying that Mozart composed the music entirely
in his head before he wrote then down. However, this has been
shown to be false.

Indeed, this is false.

Post by j***@yahoo.com
A good example of this is the sketches that Sussrmayer used to
finish the Requiem.

There is only one sketch to the Requiem and it's not known whether
Süssmayr knew it.

"According to Landon in "Mozart's Last Year, 1791," only the Requiem
aeternam (Introitus) was fully scored by Mozart. All the other
sections were done in what was called his "particella sketch". These
sketches totaled 99 pages -- an incredible, nearly impossible amount
of music to be composed in this fashion in less than a month. Also,
since the Requiem sections were not written in order, the Lachrymosa,
an early section, in fact, was the very last music Mozart composed."
http://www.keenintuition.com/World/Mozart_.html
There were sketches to the Requiem. Constanze gave Sussrmayer the
sketches to complete the mass. She needed the money of the
commission.

That is a somewhat baffling statement (and it has certainly baffled you). I
think you will find that the correct translation (particularly in this
context) of "particella" is 'short score'.

When the authenticity of the Requiem was thrown into doubt, Constanze
and Maximilian Stadler sprung to its defence. As well as being able to
give details of the extent of Mozart's autograph score, they also
claimed that Suessmayr had been able to make use of Mozart's sketches
on scraps of paper (Zetteln or Trummer in German) as a basis for his
composition of the remaining movements. At the time no sketches were
known to be existent; the 'Amen'/'Rex tremendae' sketch was
only found in 1962.

Basically, there were short sketches on scraps of paper. This "short
score" appears not to have been a score of the complete vocal parts of
the Requiem.

This is what I understand to being the accepted theory on Mozart
composing the Requiem. What it shows to me is that Mozart didn't
simply complete his compositions in his head. He worked on them
extensively and created sketches - a more lengthy process of creation
rather than spontaneously writing out compositions.

Jimmy Boy

[Sybrand Bakker]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
This is what I understand to being the accepted theory on Mozart
composing the Requiem. What it shows to me is that Mozart didn't
simply complete his compositions in his head. He worked on them
extensively and created sketches - a more lengthy process of creation
rather than spontaneously writing out compositions.

Sounds like one of the far-reaching, unmotivated, conclusions you are
drawing here so often, mainly stemming from your big thumb.
Please tell me, how many sketches of Mozart do you know as compared to
the real sketches of Beethoven?
I don't think Christoph Wolff in his book on the Requiem came to
identical conclusions. So then what, is the accepted theory? Your
theory?


Sybrand Bakker

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[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Sybrand Bakker

Post by j***@yahoo.com
This is what I understand to being the accepted theory on Mozart
composing the Requiem. What it shows to me is that Mozart didn't
simply complete his compositions in his head. He worked on them
extensively and created sketches - a more lengthy process of creation
rather than spontaneously writing out compositions.

Sounds like one of the far-reaching, unmotivated, conclusions you are
drawing here so often, mainly stemming from your big thumb.
Please tell me, how many sketches of Mozart do you know as compared to
the real sketches of Beethoven?
I don't think Christoph Wolff in his book on the Requiem came to
identical conclusions. So then what, is the accepted theory? Your
theory?

The first paragraph was a cut and paste job to document my thesis.
Then I stated "what it shows to me" to indicate this was my opinion.
As this isn't Bach, I am going to do no more research to support my
hypothesis. This is only Mozart, so I don't care. Let the readers
who do, research the matter and decide for themselves.

Beethoven's process of creation is lot different than Mozart. I
actually have Barry Cooper's book "Beethoven and the Creative Process."
Beethoven was considered a somewhat laborious and slow worker.
Comparing Beethoven's sketches and process of composition to Mozart's
is apples and oranges.

Jimmy Boy