Discussion:
Musing on diverse kanons
(too old to reply)
Zach
2006-01-06 06:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Just heard "Diverse kanons on the first eight notes of the Aria ground
from the Goldberg Variations" (BWV 1087). I seem to recall that this
piece was discovered fairly recently (past 20 years), can anyone
confirm that? Does ground mean this is the first eight notes of the
bass part of the Aria? I have listened to this piece several times over
and it is very catchy for some reason. I wonder if Bach saw entire
compositions nearly pre-formed in his head or if it just all came to
him quickly as he wrote the piece into existence? I know some of Bach's
works have a very high degree or mathematical/logical structure. Was
Bach likely a visual thinker? He must have had extraordinary spatial
reasoning ability or whatever the approriate analog is here.

SDG,
Zach
Alain Naigeon
2006-01-06 16:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zach
Just heard "Diverse kanons on the first eight notes of the Aria ground
from the Goldberg Variations" (BWV 1087). I seem to recall that this
piece was discovered fairly recently (past 20 years), can anyone
confirm that? Does ground mean this is the first eight notes of the
bass part of the Aria? I have listened to this piece several times over
and it is very catchy for some reason. I wonder if Bach saw entire
compositions nearly pre-formed in his head or if it just all came to
him quickly as he wrote the piece into existence? I know some of Bach's
works have a very high degree or mathematical/logical structure. Was
Bach likely a visual thinker? He must have had extraordinary spatial
reasoning ability or whatever the approriate analog is here.
Hi Zach,

Not an answer to your question... however, I've read that is was able
to sight read several voices written on separate parts!

--

Français *==> "Musique renaissance" <==* English
midi - facsimiles - ligatures - mensuration
http://anaigeon.free.fr | http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/anaigeon/
Alain Naigeon - ***@free.fr - Strasbourg, France
Alain Naigeon
2006-01-06 16:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Naigeon
I've read that is was able
*he*

--

Français *==> "Musique renaissance" <==* English
midi - facsimiles - ligatures - mensuration
http://anaigeon.free.fr | http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/anaigeon/
Alain Naigeon - ***@free.fr - Strasbourg, France
Sybrand Bakker
2006-01-06 17:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zach
I wonder if Bach saw entire
compositions nearly pre-formed in his head or if it just all came to
him quickly as he wrote the piece into existence?
Bach was opposed against composing along the keyboard.
However, it has been established past WWII Bach actually did make
sketches.

Sybrand Bakker

anti-spam maatregel
om te antwoorden verwijder '-verwijderdit' uit mijn e-mail adres
j***@yahoo.com
2006-01-06 18:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Post by Zach
I wonder if Bach saw entire
compositions nearly pre-formed in his head or if it just all came to
him quickly as he wrote the piece into existence?
Bach was opposed against composing along the keyboard.
However, it has been established past WWII Bach actually did make
sketches.
Sybrand Bakker
Weren't most of the sketches in made in the margins while he was
waiting for the ink to dry? This would lend credence to the theory the
music was estabished before he started to write the score. Also, some
scholars have expressed the opinion he rarely had to change the overall
design once he started to put the work to paper.

Jimmy Boy
Sybrand Bakker
2006-01-06 22:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by Sybrand Bakker
Post by Zach
I wonder if Bach saw entire
compositions nearly pre-formed in his head or if it just all came to
him quickly as he wrote the piece into existence?
Bach was opposed against composing along the keyboard.
However, it has been established past WWII Bach actually did make
sketches.
Sybrand Bakker
Weren't most of the sketches in made in the margins while he was
waiting for the ink to dry? This would lend credence to the theory the
music was estabished before he started to write the score. Also, some
scholars have expressed the opinion he rarely had to change the overall
design once he started to put the work to paper.
Jimmy Boy
As to the first question: could you either
a) substantiate this remark, by referring to a specific manuascript
or
b) stop making up fairy tales?
The latter is of course preferred.

Sybrand Bakker

anti-spam maatregel
om te antwoorden verwijder '-verwijderdit' uit mijn e-mail adres
j***@yahoo.com
2006-01-07 00:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Why the attitude? It was merely a question. Marshall in his book
about the compositional process mentioned that Bach often made notes in
the margins. The notes were often themes and motifs. I was trying to
ascertain if these were the same notes you were refering to.

Jimmy Boy
Tom Hens
2006-01-07 01:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Weren't most of the sketches in made in the margins while he was
waiting for the ink to dry? This would lend credence to the theory the
music was estabished before he started to write the score.
What a bizarre story. Have you ever taken the time to look into the
revision history of Bach's works? With works he performed several times,
often with intervals of years or decades, he kept on revising, often
squeezing corrections into the margins. In the case of the harpsichord
concertos for instance he made revisions to the harpsichord part in the
margins using organ tablature, because that takes up less space than
standard musical notation. When the revisions became too extensive, or
perhaps too confusing for the poor copyists who had to write out parts, he
occasionally wrote out a new, "clean" partition (version 3 of BWV 134, for
instance).
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Also, some
scholars have expressed the opinion he rarely had to change the overall
design once he started to put the work to paper.
Again, a bizarre idea. The convoluted revision history of a lot of Bach's
works shows the exact opposite. To name just one prime example, look at the
revision history of the St. Matthew Passion and the St. John Passion, how
some music wandered between both works (and other works, such as the
funeral music for Leopold of Köthen), how some arias were added to revised
versions of the St. John Passion but discarded for later performances, etc.
Or look at the whole complicated tangle of parody and borrowings between
both vocal and instrumental works. To name just one extreme example, Bach
turned what was a part of a solo violin sonata, written in Köthen (BWV
1006/1), into a mini-concerto for organ, strings, oboes, trumpets and
timpani for a Leipzig cantata (BWV 29/1) -- and a lovely piece it is, too.
That's hardly a sign that there was an "overall design" that existed before
he put pen to paper, is it?
j***@yahoo.com
2006-01-07 03:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Hens
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Weren't most of the sketches in made in the margins while he was
waiting for the ink to dry? This would lend credence to the theory the
music was estabished before he started to write the score.
What a bizarre story. Have you ever taken the time to look into the
revision history of Bach's works? With works he performed several times,
often with intervals of years or decades, he kept on revising, often
squeezing corrections into the margins. In the case of the harpsichord
concertos for instance he made revisions to the harpsichord part in the
margins using organ tablature, because that takes up less space than
standard musical notation. When the revisions became too extensive, or
perhaps too confusing for the poor copyists who had to write out parts, he
occasionally wrote out a new, "clean" partition (version 3 of BWV 134, for
instance).
Revision history is irrelevant about the sketches. I suggest you read
"The Music of JSB: the Sources, the Style, the Significance" by Robert
L. Marshall. He studied the sketches in depth to try to determine
Bach's compositional technique. On page 111, I quote Robert Marshall:
"The majority great majority[sketches] seem to be memory aids written
at the bottom of a recto to record the immediate continuation of the
music on the next page while the ink was drying."

My question for Herr Bakker was to clarify if he had more information
on the subject. From his response, he clearly doesn't understand what
the sketches are and the significance to the compositional process of
Bach.

Second, Spitta in his essay Beethoveniana ( 1892 ) wrote:

Despite the great complexity of [Bach's] music, we know of few cases
where the layout of a piece was rejected once it had been worked out.
Nor did he often falter while working out the details. Sometimes he
made changes when he took up a word again at a later date, but for an
understanding of the way it was formed in the beginning, teh evidence
provided by such changes tells us nothing. ( p. 181).

Marshall agreed with assessment.
Post by Tom Hens
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Also, some
scholars have expressed the opinion he rarely had to change the overall
design once he started to put the work to paper.
Again, a bizarre idea. The convoluted revision history of a lot of Bach's
works shows the exact opposite. To name just one prime example, look at the
revision history of the St. Matthew Passion and the St. John Passion, how
some music wandered between both works (and other works, such as the
funeral music for Leopold of Köthen), how some arias were added to revised
versions of the St. John Passion but discarded for later performances, etc.
Or look at the whole complicated tangle of parody and borrowings between
both vocal and instrumental works. To name just one extreme example, Bach
turned what was a part of a solo violin sonata, written in Köthen (BWV
1006/1), into a mini-concerto for organ, strings, oboes, trumpets and
timpani for a Leipzig cantata (BWV 29/1) -- and a lovely piece it is, too.
That's hardly a sign that there was an "overall design" that existed before
he put pen to paper, is it?
The revisions of Bach's works are different than the compositional
process. After he finished a work he often tinkered with things after
the fact. But this doesn't give us insight on how he composed.

I think this answers the original question plus the supplementary
question I proposed. It also corrects the faulty information provided
by others in the thread.

Time to call it a night.

Jimmy Boy
j***@yahoo.com
2006-01-07 03:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Hens
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Weren't most of the sketches in made in the margins while he was
waiting for the ink to dry? This would lend credence to the theory the
music was estabished before he started to write the score.
What a bizarre story. Have you ever taken the time to look into the
revision history of Bach's works? With works he performed several times,
often with intervals of years or decades, he kept on revising, often
squeezing corrections into the margins. In the case of the harpsichord
concertos for instance he made revisions to the harpsichord part in the
margins using organ tablature, because that takes up less space than
standard musical notation. When the revisions became too extensive, or
perhaps too confusing for the poor copyists who had to write out parts, he
occasionally wrote out a new, "clean" partition (version 3 of BWV 134, for
instance).
Revision history is irrelevant about the sketches. I suggest you read
"The Music of JSB: the Sources, the Style, the Significance" by Robert
L. Marshall. He studied the sketches in depth to try to determine
Bach's compositional technique. On page 111, I quote Robert Marshall:
"The majority great majority[sketches] seem to be memory aids written
at the bottom of a recto to record the immediate continuation of the
music on the next page while the ink was drying."

My question for Herr Bakker was to clarify if he had more information
on the subject. From his response, he clearly doesn't understand what
the sketches are and the significance to the compositional process of
Bach.

Second, Spitta in his essay Beethoveniana ( 1892 ) wrote:

Despite the great complexity of [Bach's] music, we know of few cases
where the layout of a piece was rejected once it had been worked out.
Nor did he often falter while working out the details. Sometimes he
made changes when he took up a word again at a later date, but for an
understanding of the way it was formed in the beginning, teh evidence
provided by such changes tells us nothing. ( p. 181).

Marshall agreed with assessment.
Post by Tom Hens
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Also, some
scholars have expressed the opinion he rarely had to change the overall
design once he started to put the work to paper.
Again, a bizarre idea. The convoluted revision history of a lot of Bach's
works shows the exact opposite. To name just one prime example, look at the
revision history of the St. Matthew Passion and the St. John Passion, how
some music wandered between both works (and other works, such as the
funeral music for Leopold of Köthen), how some arias were added to revised
versions of the St. John Passion but discarded for later performances, etc.
Or look at the whole complicated tangle of parody and borrowings between
both vocal and instrumental works. To name just one extreme example, Bach
turned what was a part of a solo violin sonata, written in Köthen (BWV
1006/1), into a mini-concerto for organ, strings, oboes, trumpets and
timpani for a Leipzig cantata (BWV 29/1) -- and a lovely piece it is, too.
That's hardly a sign that there was an "overall design" that existed before
he put pen to paper, is it?
The revisions of Bach's works are different than the compositional
process. After he finished a work he often tinkered with things after
the fact. But this doesn't give us insight on how he composed.

I think this answers the original question plus the supplementary
question I proposed. It also corrects the faulty information provided
by others in the thread.

Time to call it a night.

Jimmy Boy
Tom Hens
2006-01-24 04:56:19 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com wrote...

<snip>
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Revision history is irrelevant about the sketches.
It is very relevant indeed to any claim about Bach supposedly "seeing"
whole works in his head before putting them down on paper. It is quite
clear from the record that he tried out ideas and rejected them, started
pieces and scratched them out after a few bars (BWV 248/31a, for
instance), or even sometimes wrote whole pieces and abandoned them in
favour of something else (BWV 149/1a, for instance). The larger-scale
revisions and shuffling about of whole movements between major works like
the St. Matthew and the St. John passions show the same thing.
Post by j***@yahoo.com
I suggest you read "The Music of JSB: the Sources, the Style, the
Significance" by Robert L. Marshall. He studied the sketches
What sketches?
Post by j***@yahoo.com
in depth to try to determine Bach's compositional technique. On page
111, I quote Robert Marshall: "The majority great majority[sketches]
seem to be memory aids written at the bottom of a recto to record the
immediate continuation of the music on the next page while the ink was
drying."
I'm sorry, but I find it hard not to laugh at claims like this. I've never
written music, but I have written a fair bit of text. And the notion that
somebody other than myself could figure out from the kind of scribbling
that I do within the text or in the margins just why I made those
particular notes at some particular point in time seems ludicrous to me. If
you'd confront me with a bunch of manuscript pages I've written a couple of
years ago *I* wouldn't be able to tell you either. Frankly, I often
wouldn't be even to tell you just a few days after. They're ephemeral
things, and they stop mattering once the text is finished (which is why
most people throw away such things, but in Bach's time paper was very
expensive). The idea that somebody who's never met me, more than two
centuries after my death, could look at pages I've written and posthumously
determine specific reasons for me making such-and-such a note, such as
that I was "waiting for the ink to dry" is just laughable.

(I can't help but wondering about one historical point though: Bach
supposedly had to wait while the ink was drying -- hadn't blotting paper
been invented yet?)
You are aware that most of what Spitta wrote about the way Bach created his
music has been comprehensively disproven, aren't you?
j***@yahoo.com
2006-01-27 22:45:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Hens
<snip>
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Revision history is irrelevant about the sketches.
It is very relevant indeed to any claim about Bach supposedly "seeing"
whole works in his head before putting them down on paper. It is quite
clear from the record that he tried out ideas and rejected them, started
pieces and scratched them out after a few bars (BWV 248/31a, for
instance), or even sometimes wrote whole pieces and abandoned them in
favour of something else (BWV 149/1a, for instance). The larger-scale
revisions and shuffling about of whole movements between major works like
the St. Matthew and the St. John passions show the same thing.
Post by j***@yahoo.com
I suggest you read "The Music of JSB: the Sources, the Style, the
Significance" by Robert L. Marshall. He studied the sketches
What sketches?
Post by j***@yahoo.com
in depth to try to determine Bach's compositional technique. On page
111, I quote Robert Marshall: "The majority great majority[sketches]
seem to be memory aids written at the bottom of a recto to record the
immediate continuation of the music on the next page while the ink was
drying."
I'm sorry, but I find it hard not to laugh at claims like this. I've never
written music, but I have written a fair bit of text. And the notion that
somebody other than myself could figure out from the kind of scribbling
that I do within the text or in the margins just why I made those
particular notes at some particular point in time seems ludicrous to me. If
you'd confront me with a bunch of manuscript pages I've written a couple of
years ago *I* wouldn't be able to tell you either. Frankly, I often
wouldn't be even to tell you just a few days after. They're ephemeral
things, and they stop mattering once the text is finished (which is why
most people throw away such things, but in Bach's time paper was very
expensive). The idea that somebody who's never met me, more than two
centuries after my death, could look at pages I've written and posthumously
determine specific reasons for me making such-and-such a note, such as
that I was "waiting for the ink to dry" is just laughable.
(I can't help but wondering about one historical point though: Bach
supposedly had to wait while the ink was drying -- hadn't blotting paper
been invented yet?)
This was a direct quote from Marshall who is a recognized authority on
the subject.
Post by Tom Hens
You are aware that most of what Spitta wrote about the way Bach created his
music has been comprehensively disproven, aren't you?
I don't agree with the comment that suggests Spitta has comprehensively
been disproven. His dating of Bach's words certainly need updating but
there still was a lot of good information in his writings. Even at
this late date if you are researching a topic on Bach then Spitta is a
good place to start.

Jimmy Boy

P.S. When you are reading Spitta you need to realize that he had a
"German" perspective. People were very nationalistic in those days.
j***@yahoo.com
2006-01-07 08:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Hens
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Weren't most of the sketches in made in the margins while he was
waiting for the ink to dry? This would lend credence to the theory the
music was estabished before he started to write the score.
What a bizarre story. Have you ever taken the time to look into the
revision history of Bach's works?
Yes I have. The case of BVW 1019 is very perplexing to me. The
discarded movements from the two earlier version sound perfectly fine
to me. One became on aria in BVW 171, others became movements in
Partita #6.
Post by Tom Hens
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Also, some
scholars have expressed the opinion he rarely had to change the overall
design once he started to put the work to paper.
Again, a bizarre idea. The convoluted revision history of a lot of Bach's
works shows the exact opposite. To name just one prime example, look at the
revision history of the St. Matthew Passion and the St. John Passion, how
some music wandered between both works (and other works, such as the
funeral music for Leopold of Köthen), how some arias were added to revised
versions of the St. John Passion but discarded for later performances, etc.
Or look at the whole complicated tangle of parody and borrowings between
both vocal and instrumental works. To name just one extreme example, Bach
turned what was a part of a solo violin sonata, written in Köthen (BWV
1006/1), into a mini-concerto for organ, strings, oboes, trumpets and
timpani for a Leipzig cantata (BWV 29/1) -- and a lovely piece it is, too.
That's hardly a sign that there was an "overall design" that existed before
he put pen to paper, is it?
The propensity of Bach to make alterations in compositions tell us
little about his compositional process. Let me quote from Spitta's
Beethoveniana essay:

Despite the great complexity of [Bach's] music, we know of few cases
where the layout of a piece was rejected once it had been worked out.
Nor did he often falter while working out the details. Sometimes he
made changes when he took up a work again at a later date; but for an
understanding by the way it was formed in the beginning, the evidence
provided by such changes tells us nothing. (p. 181)

The sketches left by Bach were mostly either notes for the next pages
or thematic material for later movements or compositions. In Robert L.
Marshall's book "The Music of JSB: the Sources, the Style, the
Significance" he wrote:

The great majority[sketches] seem to be memory aids written at the
bottom of the recto to record the immediate continuation of the music
on the next page while the ink was drying. Similarly, tenative
marginal notations of the opening themes for later movements of the
same work, and more rarely for works to be composed in the near future,
usually resemble the final versions enough to be recognized easily.

After Marshall studied the sketches he examined the scores. His
conclusion was that Bach was a "clean" worker. However, he did show
that in the case of BWV 105/3 Bach made changes that were clearly more
than details.

If you wish to know more about Bach's compositional technique, I
suggest you read Marshall's book. Wolff also wrote some good essays,
but I too tired to find the complete reference.

Later,
Jimmy Boy
Tom Hens
2006-01-07 01:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zach
Just heard "Diverse kanons on the first eight notes of the Aria ground
from the Goldberg Variations" (BWV 1087). I seem to recall that this
piece was discovered fairly recently (past 20 years), can anyone
confirm that?
1975, according to the BWV, that's the date of the first publication about
them they list. Hence the high and out-of-sequence BWV number: anything
with a BWV number above 1080 has been rediscovered after 1950. They're a
handwritten addition Bach made to his personal copy of the printed edition
of the Goldberg Variations, now in the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris.

As an aside, to explain my current interest in BWV numbers: I've been
spending a lot of my spare time for the past few months on compiling a
works list of Bach, which I intend to release for free in PDF format, and
which of course has to be checked and checked again against the BWV (the
most recent 2a version). So I'm currently somewhat obsessed with the BWV,
and its sometimes maddening inconsistencies. I hope I get better once the
project is finished. (I'm quite happy that on New Year's Day I finally
finished the first-line index to all of Bach's vocal and organ works, which
runs to a bit over 2000 entries.)
Post by Zach
Does ground mean this is the first eight notes of the
bass part of the Aria?
Yes. They're a traditional eight-note basso ostinato pattern which Bach
actually borrowed from a harpsichord suite by Handel (HWV 442).
Post by Zach
I have listened to this piece several times over
and it is very catchy for some reason. I wonder if Bach saw entire
compositions nearly pre-formed in his head or if it just all came to
him quickly as he wrote the piece into existence? I know some of Bach's
works have a very high degree or mathematical/logical structure. Was
Bach likely a visual thinker?
What little has been preserved of his writings, and his documented dislike
of writing in the first place, certainly shows that he wasn't a very verbal
thinker.
Post by Zach
He must have had extraordinary spatial
reasoning ability or whatever the approriate analog is here.
Instead of an analog, why not just say "extraordinary musical ability"?
Being very good at music doesn't mean one has extraordinary abilities in
other fields, spatial, mathematical, logical, or whatever.
j***@yahoo.com
2006-01-06 17:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zach
Just heard "Diverse kanons on the first eight notes of the Aria ground
from the Goldberg Variations" (BWV 1087). I seem to recall that this
piece was discovered fairly recently (past 20 years), can anyone
confirm that? Does ground mean this is the first eight notes of the
bass part of the Aria? I have listened to this piece several times over
and it is very catchy for some reason. I wonder if Bach saw entire
compositions nearly pre-formed in his head or if it just all came to
him quickly as he wrote the piece into existence? I know some of Bach's
works have a very high degree or mathematical/logical structure. Was
Bach likely a visual thinker? He must have had extraordinary spatial
reasoning ability or whatever the approriate analog is here.
SDG,
Zach
How you seen the movie Amadeus? In the movie Saleri claims that Mozart
wrote the music down from wholly formed music in head. However, this
have been disputed. Mozart made sketches of this music. It is from
these sketches that his Requim was finished by Suzzelmyer. Still
Mozart had an astonishing memory. He was able to hear complex
compositions and then write the scores on paper from an early age.

I know this speaks little about Bach. But the truth is that we don't
much about the inner workings of Bach's mind. The whole field of
"Cognitive Science" is fairly new. Coincidentally my wife has a degree
in Cognitive Science from Berkeley. Maybe I will ask her what she
thinks...

Jimmy Boy
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