Pre-Bach German Music

[Lawrence]

I have listened to Schutz, Buxtehude and Reinkin in seeking to know
something of Bach's German predecessors and influences. They frankly
sound rather primitive to me, when compared to him. The layers of
complexity he seems to have added are very extensive. I have not heard
any counterpoint even approaching his. Is my opinion well-founded or
erroneous? Perhaps there are key works by these composers, or other
composers, I have not heard. What I have heard has comprised cantatas
and various instrumental sonatas and variations.

[Alain Naigeon]

Post by Lawrence
I have listened to Schutz, Buxtehude and Reinkin in seeking to know
something of Bach's German predecessors and influences. They frankly
sound rather primitive to me, when compared to him. The layers of
complexity he seems to have added are very extensive. I have not heard
any counterpoint even approaching his. Is my opinion well-founded or
erroneous?

Well Lawrence, that seems to be your taste, but... I wouldn't say
Schütz and Buxtehude sound "primitive" !! BTW, Bach had a
different opinion about Buxtehude, since he travelled on purpose,
just to meet him.

[John Briggs]

Post by Alain Naigeon

Post by Lawrence
I have listened to Schutz, Buxtehude and Reinkin in seeking to know
something of Bach's German predecessors and influences. They frankly
sound rather primitive to me, when compared to him. The layers of
complexity he seems to have added are very extensive. I have not
heard any counterpoint even approaching his. Is my opinion
well-founded or erroneous?

Well Lawrence, that seems to be your taste, but... I wouldn't say
Schütz and Buxtehude sound "primitive" !! BTW, Bach had a
different opinion about Buxtehude, since he travelled on purpose,
just to meet him.

Not necessarily - that wasn't the reason given by Handel and his friend
Mattheson when they went there about the same time :-)

[FS]

Post by Lawrence
I have listened to Schutz, Buxtehude and Reinkin in seeking to know
something of Bach's German predecessors and influences. They frankly
sound rather primitive to me, when compared to him. The layers of
complexity he seems to have added are very extensive. I have not heard
any counterpoint even approaching his. Is my opinion well-founded or
erroneous? Perhaps there are key works by these composers, or other
composers, I have not heard. What I have heard has comprised cantatas
and various instrumental sonatas and variations.

I don't agree with that. Bach an his family (uncles, cousins etc., whose
works Bach himself copied an perormed in Leipzig for example) have
learned very much of Schütz, di Lasso, Hassler and so on. Of course they
wrote music in an elder style, but there are overwhelming works by those
composers. Schütz was for example a real master in "musical poetry", you
may also call it "musical rhetoric". Try to hav a look at the scores or
hear the midi-files on cpdl.org! There are also examples of Bach's
ancesters.
(sorry about my english, it's only school-english, learned decades before!)

Greetings

F. Segner

[Lawrence]

Post by FS

Post by Lawrence
I have listened to Schutz, Buxtehude and Reinkin in seeking to know
something of Bach's German predecessors and influences. They frankly
sound rather primitive to me, when compared to him. The layers of
complexity he seems to have added are very extensive. I have not heard
any counterpoint even approaching his. Is my opinion well-founded or
erroneous? Perhaps there are key works by these composers, or other
composers, I have not heard. What I have heard has comprised cantatas
and various instrumental sonatas and variations.

I don't agree with that. Bach an his family (uncles, cousins etc., whose
works Bach himself copied an perormed in Leipzig for example) have
learned very much of Schütz, di Lasso, Hassler and so on. Of course they
wrote music in an elder style, but there are overwhelming works by those
composers. Schütz was for example a real master in "musical poetry", you
may also call it "musical rhetoric". Try to hav a look at the scores or
hear the midi-files on cpdl.org! There are also examples of Bach's
ancesters.
(sorry about my english, it's only school-english, learned decades before!)
Greetings
F. Segner

I meant not to disrespect or insult these earlier composers. I know
that no art survives such a long time without real merit. I meant only
that the gap between their technical means and expressive strength, and
Bach's, seemed very large to me.

Thanks for replying and your English is not bad at all. If you would,
please specify some titles of these 'overwhelming' works so I may hear
them on CD. I read music only very poorly and I unfortunately receive
little enjoyment or understanding of the music, from midi files.

Lawrence

[FS]

Post by Lawrence

Post by FS

Post by Lawrence
I have listened to Schutz, Buxtehude and Reinkin in seeking to know
something of Bach's German predecessors and influences. They frankly
sound rather primitive to me, when compared to him. The layers of
complexity he seems to have added are very extensive. I have not heard
any counterpoint even approaching his. Is my opinion well-founded or
erroneous? Perhaps there are key works by these composers, or other
composers, I have not heard. What I have heard has comprised cantatas
and various instrumental sonatas and variations.

I don't agree with that. Bach an his family (uncles, cousins etc., whose
works Bach himself copied an perormed in Leipzig for example) have
learned very much of Schütz, di Lasso, Hassler and so on. Of course they
wrote music in an elder style, but there are overwhelming works by those
composers. Schütz was for example a real master in "musical poetry", you
may also call it "musical rhetoric". Try to hav a look at the scores or
hear the midi-files on cpdl.org! There are also examples of Bach's
ancesters.
(sorry about my english, it's only school-english, learned decades before!)
Greetings
F. Segner

I meant not to disrespect or insult these earlier composers. I know
that no art survives such a long time without real merit. I meant only
that the gap between their technical means and expressive strength, and
Bach's, seemed very large to me.
Thanks for replying and your English is not bad at all. If you would,
please specify some titles of these 'overwhelming' works so I may hear
them on CD. I read music only very poorly and I unfortunately receive
little enjoyment or understanding of the music, from midi files.
Lawrence

Hello, Merry Christmas to all of you and a happy New Year,

so I tell some recordings I know for you to have a more vivid impression
of the predesessors of Bach:

I own some (not much) recordings of this music and suggest the following:

Heinrich Schütz: "Musikalische Exequien", Motetten und Konzerte, The
Monteverdi Choir, The English Baroque Soloists, His Majesties Sagbutts
and Cornetts, Conductor: John Eliot Gardiner (Deutsche Grammophon)

Heinrich Schütz: "Psalmen Davids", Kammerchor Stuttgart, Musica Fiata
Köln, Cond.: Frieder Bernius, Sony Music, Label "Vivarte"

Motetten der Bach-Familie, Capella Sancti Michaelis, Ricercar-Consort,
Cond.: Erik van Nevel, Label: Ricercar

several german componists: Festal Sacred Music of Bavaria, Westminster
Cathedral Choir, Cond.: James O'Donnel, Label: hyperion

There are surely much more examples of good recordings. Perhaps someone
will add some suggestions to this list.

Frank

[Lawrence]

Post by FS

Post by Lawrence

Post by FS

Post by Lawrence
I have listened to Schutz, Buxtehude and Reinkin in seeking to know
something of Bach's German predecessors and influences. They frankly
sound rather primitive to me, when compared to him. The layers of
complexity he seems to have added are very extensive. I have not heard
any counterpoint even approaching his. Is my opinion well-founded or
erroneous? Perhaps there are key works by these composers, or other
composers, I have not heard. What I have heard has comprised cantatas
and various instrumental sonatas and variations.

I don't agree with that. Bach an his family (uncles, cousins etc., whose
works Bach himself copied an perormed in Leipzig for example) have
learned very much of Schütz, di Lasso, Hassler and so on. Of course they
wrote music in an elder style, but there are overwhelming works by those
composers. Schütz was for example a real master in "musical poetry", you
may also call it "musical rhetoric". Try to hav a look at the scores or
hear the midi-files on cpdl.org! There are also examples of Bach's
ancesters.
(sorry about my english, it's only school-english, learned decades before!)
Greetings
F. Segner

I meant not to disrespect or insult these earlier composers. I know
that no art survives such a long time without real merit. I meant only
that the gap between their technical means and expressive strength, and
Bach's, seemed very large to me.
Thanks for replying and your English is not bad at all. If you would,
please specify some titles of these 'overwhelming' works so I may hear
them on CD. I read music only very poorly and I unfortunately receive
little enjoyment or understanding of the music, from midi files.
Lawrence

Hello, Merry Christmas to all of you and a happy New Year,
so I tell some recordings I know for you to have a more vivid impression
Heinrich Schütz: "Musikalische Exequien", Motetten und Konzerte, The
Monteverdi Choir, The English Baroque Soloists, His Majesties Sagbutts
and Cornetts, Conductor: John Eliot Gardiner (Deutsche Grammophon)
Heinrich Schütz: "Psalmen Davids", Kammerchor Stuttgart, Musica Fiata
Köln, Cond.: Frieder Bernius, Sony Music, Label "Vivarte"
Motetten der Bach-Familie, Capella Sancti Michaelis, Ricercar-Consort,
Cond.: Erik van Nevel, Label: Ricercar
several german componists: Festal Sacred Music of Bavaria, Westminster
Cathedral Choir, Cond.: James O'Donnel, Label: hyperion
There are surely much more examples of good recordings. Perhaps someone
will add some suggestions to this list.
Frank

Thnak you very much for this list. I will make good use of it.