Chaconne BWV 1004

[Ioannis]

I've had a chance to listen to all three versions of the Chaconne: For violin
with Jascha Heifetz, for guitar with John Williams and for piano with Nikolai
Demidenko (transcribed by Buzzoni)

Am I mistaken or is the original for violin? It says on the Heifetz notes from
"Partita for solo violin No. 2".

Anyway, the piano version seemed a bit too much, and my impression was that
Demidenko was using the piece to "show off" his technical expertise in a
sense, which made the Chaconne very aggressive and intense at times. My
understanding is that the piece is more like a rather solemn set of
variations, which begets a general sense of introspection and quiet depth,
unlike what Demidenko does with the piece. He almost breaks the damn piano at
some places.

Heifetz's violin is wonderful, but if that's the original, it's a bit dry for
my taste. I guess the violin is not perfectly suited for the Chaconne's
polyphony, but it is acceptable. It almost pushes the violin polyphony to its
limits...

The best I think was the John Williams guitar version. The guitar version
brings out EXACTLY the spirit of this piece, imo. Not too loud, not too quiet,
just right. Sort of more uniform.

Any opinions from others who have heard all three versions?

Are there any other pieces by JS for which you like a transcribed version more
than the original?

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Ioannis
The guitar version
brings out EXACTLY the spirit of this piece, imo. Not too loud, not too quiet,
just right. Sort of more uniform.
Any opinions from others who have heard all three versions?
Are there any other pieces by JS for which you like a transcribed version more
than the original?
--

Bravo Ioannis!!

Do I say that because I am a guitarist? Only partly.

By the way, I happen to think the best type of guitar for playing
Bach's music is the 8-string guitar. Do I say that because I am an
8-string guitarist? Yes!

A great deal of the solo violin and 'cello pieces work extremely well
on the guitar, as do some keyboard pieces and even some cantata
movements. Some require transposition, some don't. Here is a list of
some that I think work very well, but there are more possibilities than
on this list:

Cantata Movements:

"Wachet Auf, ruft uns die Stimme" (Sleepers Awake) - BWV 140, "Jesus
bleibet meine freude" (Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring) - 147, Sinfonia -
BWV 156

Violin:

BWV 1001 (the Fuga from this Sonata was was represented also in BWV
539/organ and BWV 1000/ lute and using the 3 versions makes the best
guitar version)
BWV 1002 (especially the Sarabande, Tempo do Borea - Double
BWV 1003
BWV 1004 (primarily the Ciaccona - yes, the autograph score says
Ciaccona, not Chaconne, but all the movements work well))
BWV 1005 (especially the Largo)
BWV 1006 (working with 1006 and 1006a, the so-called 4th lute suite,
yields the best version for guitar)

'Cello:

BWV 1007
BWV 1009 (transposed to G from C, possibly my favorite Bach to play on
the guitar)
BWV 1011 (the 5th 'cello suite, arranged by Bach as BWV 995 for lute,
the so-called 3rd Lute suite)
BWV 1012 (especially the Gavottes)

Violin Concertos:

BWV 1041 and 1042 sound great as guitar concertos, in BWV 1043 the
guitar is well suited as continuo

Lute Suites (most of which were most likely keyboard pieces):

BWV 995 (in g minor for lute, autograph score, similar to BWV 1011 in c
minor, on guitar usually played in a minor)
BWV 996 (probably Lautenwerk)
BWV 997 (probably Lautenwerk, there is a lute intabulation by Johann
Christian Weyrauch of the Prelude (Fantasia), Sarabande, Gigue, but not
the majestic Fuga)
BWV 998 (Prelude, Fugue, and Allegro, probably Lautenwerk)
BWV 999 (one of the Little Preludes, likely intended for lute)
BWV 1000 (not a Bach arrangement, done by Johann Christian Weyrauch)
BWV 1006a (probably keyboard)

The guitar also makes an excellent continuo instrument and so figures
well in many other works by Bach.

Andrew
http://www.abacaproductions.com/

[Thomas Wood]

You say "all three versions" like those are the only ones.

Have you heard Stokowski's orchestration? Brahms' arrangement for piano,
left hand only? The version for 12 cellos? There are lots more...

And don't blame Demidenko for what you don't like in that piano
arrangement -- he's just playing the notes Busoni wrote.

Tom Wood

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Ioannis, excellent post. Do listen to Andrew Schulman, as he's a
professional classical guitarist of great skill, and with much
knowledge about Bach.

I agree with you, though my favorite guitar version is that of Angel
Romero on this CD, truly wonderful in my view:

http://tinyurl.com/oqv7v

I think you'll find the comparison with JW's version to be very
interesting.

Also, check out these videos of the Chaconne:

http://tinyurl.com/mcnak

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Ioannis, excellent post. Do listen to Andrew Schulman, as he's a
professional classical guitarist of great skill, and with much
knowledge about Bach.

Thank you Jackson, that is very kind of you.

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
I agree with you, though my favorite guitar version is that of Angel

This is most assuredly the best era for listening to the guitar,
because of all the talent that has been drawn to the instrument, and
some real leaps in the guitar making art. There are many excellent
recordings on guitar of the Ciaccona worth exploring, in addition to JW
and AR, both of which are excellent.

Andrew

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by Andrew Schulman
Thank you Jackson, that is very kind of you.

The truth binds me. ;-)

[Ioannis]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
Ioannis, excellent post. Do listen to Andrew Schulman, as he's a
professional classical guitarist of great skill, and with much
knowledge about Bach.

Oh, I have no doubt Andrew is an excellent guitarist. But I am not asking for
opinions only from professionals...

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
I agree with you, though my favorite guitar version is that of Angel
http://tinyurl.com/oqv7v
I think you'll find the comparison with JW's version to be very
interesting.
http://tinyurl.com/mcnak

Thanks. I checked the video with Fazil Say and I still think the Busoni
version is a bit too much for me.

Btw, Andrew, if you are reading this, do you have any online excerpts for any
of the Lute Suites? I am particularly interested in hearing your rendition of
Lute Suites 1 and/or 3 if you have something on your site. At least for Lute
suite No. 3, this guy is my all time favorite:

Dakko Petrinjak:

http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/music/PetrinjakLS3Pre.html (9MB .mp3)

Thanks again for the links Jackson.

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Ioannis
Btw, Andrew, if you are reading this, do you have any online excerpts for any
of the Lute Suites?

I have two clips on my site of Bach pieces I arranged (not excerpts,
the whole piece). The first is:
http://abacaproductions.com/mp3.shtml
Fugue in Am, based on BWV 1000 and 1001
The second is:
http://abacaproductions.com/recordings.shtml
The Prelude from Prelude, Fugue, and Allegro - BWV 998

On both pages, scroll to the bottom of the page.

FYI, there are also sound-clips on both pages of my group, ABACA, and
the singer, Wendy Sayvetz, who is my wife.

The recording the examples were taken from was done in 1988. Since
then the arrangements have changed. I now do the PFA in D major
instead of E in the sound clip (the original key was Eb). More
significantly, my version of the Fugue has changed a lot. I studied
the organ version, BWV 539, and used a lot that version. I love the
differences, the organ version has some great changes from the other
two versions.

I have 2 CD's out, both on the Centaur label, recorded in '88 and '90.
Then, in 1990, I started my group and until recently it took most of my
time. The group is doing well enough now that I am doing more solo
work. Next summer I have been invited to record several Bach CD's with
an independent record producer in CA; I am currently figuring out the
programming and have been happily immersed in the Bach repertoire for
the past few months.

Post by Ioannis
At least for Lute
http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/music/PetrinjakLS3Pre.html (9MB .mp3)

I'm listening to Petrinjak right now, excellent player!

I love BWV 995, it is, along with BWV 1000/1, the reason I started
playing 8-string. It is definitely one of the pieces I will record
next summer.

Andrew

[Jackson K. Eskew]

Post by Andrew Schulman
I have 2 CD's out, both on the Centaur label, recorded in '88 and '90.
Then, in 1990, I started my group and until recently it took most of my
time. The group is doing well enough now that I am doing more solo
work. Next summer I have been invited to record several Bach CD's with
an independent record producer in CA; I am currently figuring out the
programming and have been happily immersed in the Bach repertoire for
the past few months.

I've listened to your recordings on your site, and I must say your
playing is top notch. I was very impressed, to the point of being most
surprised that you only have two CDs out. I'm glad you're recording the
Bach CD. Any chance of giving us the scoop of which pieces you'll
record? Keep us posted on rmcg about when this recording will be
released.

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Jackson K. Eskew
I've listened to your recordings on your site, and I must say your
playing is top notch. I was very impressed, to the point of being most
surprised that you only have two CDs out. I'm glad you're recording the
Bach CD. Any chance of giving us the scoop of which pieces you'll
record? Keep us posted on rmcg about when this recording will be
released.

Once again, thank you.

After I recorded my solo CD's, I started the group, and that kept me
away from solo work for a long time. I haven't minded, I love being
the music director of a string quintet.

Also, since the time I recorded the 1st two solo CD's there has been an
enormous change in the record business. It is very difficult to make a
CD without having to pay the production costs, unless you are a famous
musician. So, for 99+% of players this means you have to put thousands
of $'s into the recording. I cannot do this because I have two 80
pound Yellow Labrador retrievers, and it is expensive to feed them.
And, if I don't feed them, they will probably eat me!

However, I will not have to pay for the recordings in CA.

We are planning on a series of CD's, several of which will be all-Bach.
I am certain that the following pieces will be included:
BWV 995, 996, 998, 1001, 1004 (Ciaccona), 1006/a, 1007, 1009, 1042
(solo version).

Depends on how many volumes we do as to how much we record. I'll keep
you posted-

Thanks again,
A.

[Ioannis]

Post by Andrew Schulman

Post by Ioannis
Btw, Andrew, if you are reading this, do you have any online excerpts for any
of the Lute Suites?

I have two clips on my site of Bach pieces I arranged (not excerpts,
http://abacaproductions.com/mp3.shtml
Fugue in Am, based on BWV 1000 and 1001
http://abacaproductions.com/recordings.shtml
The Prelude from Prelude, Fugue, and Allegro - BWV 998
On both pages, scroll to the bottom of the page.
FYI, there are also sound-clips on both pages of my group, ABACA, and
the singer, Wendy Sayvetz, who is my wife.

With a wife like that, I would record the entire Bach works for keyboard! :-)

Post by Andrew Schulman
The recording the examples were taken from was done in 1988. Since
then the arrangements have changed. I now do the PFA in D major
instead of E in the sound clip (the original key was Eb). More
significantly, my version of the Fugue has changed a lot. I studied
the organ version, BWV 539, and used a lot that version. I love the
differences, the organ version has some great changes from the other
two versions.
I have 2 CD's out, both on the Centaur label, recorded in '88 and '90.
Then, in 1990, I started my group and until recently it took most of my
time. The group is doing well enough now that I am doing more solo
work. Next summer I have been invited to record several Bach CD's with
an independent record producer in CA; I am currently figuring out the
programming and have been happily immersed in the Bach repertoire for
the past few months.

Got them. I listened to the 1000, the Weiss Fantasia (one other of my
favourites!), the Scarlatti Sonata and the Prelude of 998.

They sound fantastic with the 8-string. I see you are playing a different
starting on the 1000 than the one I am familiar with. You say this is the
organ version? I sort of prefer the violin version, but this sounds very nice
on 8-strings. The bass strings make a lot of difference!

Sort of like the difference between a pedal harpsichord and a plain
harpsichord.
[snip]

Post by Andrew Schulman
I'm listening to Petrinjak right now, excellent player!
I love BWV 995, it is, along with BWV 1000/1, the reason I started
playing 8-string. It is definitely one of the pieces I will record
next summer.

Good luck with the repertoire and keep us posted when new works come out, even
if it is only excerpts from the whole CD.

Post by Andrew Schulman
Andrew

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Ioannis
With a wife like that, I would record the entire Bach works for keyboard! :-)

Just showed this to my wife, result - big smile!

Post by Ioannis
I see you are playing a different
starting on the 1000 than the one I am familiar with. You say this is the
organ version? I sort of prefer the violin version, but this sounds very nice
on 8-strings. The bass strings make a lot of difference!

The violin, lute, and organ versions all have different expositions,
this is the lute exposition which works best on 8-string guitar IMO.

And yes, when I first heard the low basses on someone else's 8-string
(in 1975) I was "sold", though it took until 1978 before I ordered one;
that was 20 guitars ago. #20 is the first "keeper", what a journey it
has been.

Post by Ioannis
Sort of like the difference between a pedal harpsichord and a plain
harpsichord.

Yeah.

Post by Ioannis
Good luck with the repertoire and keep us posted when new works come out, even
if it is only excerpts from the whole CD.

Thank you, I'll keep you posted...

A.

[Terry Dwyer]

Post by Ioannis
I've had a chance to listen to all three versions of the Chaconne: For violin
with Jascha Heifetz, for guitar with John Williams and for piano with Nikolai
Demidenko (transcribed by Buzzoni)
Am I mistaken or is the original for violin? It says on the Heifetz notes from
"Partita for solo violin No. 2".

The original is certainly for solo violin, and I always think it sounds
like a terrible struggle against odds.

I agree it comes off far better on the guitar. I first heard Segovia
doing this on a record some 40 years ago (I may still have it somewhere).

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Ioannis
I've had a chance to listen to all three versions of the Chaconne: For violin
with Jascha Heifetz, for guitar with John Williams and for piano with Nikolai
Demidenko (transcribed by Buzzoni)
Am I mistaken or is the original for violin? It says on the Heifetz notes from
"Partita for solo violin No. 2".

I have listen to probably two dozen different performances of this. I
think the transcription by Busconni is maybe my favorite. However, it
depends on the pianist. But, I have enjoyed each and every different
perfomance. Even listening to the work in midi is interesting. Either
way, it is one of the greatest pieces of music ever written. I can't
think of anything close by someone other than Bach.

By the way, Heifetz isn't my favorite violinst for this work.

Jimmy Boy

[Lawrence]

Post by Ioannis
I've had a chance to listen to all three versions of the Chaconne: For violin
with Jascha Heifetz, for guitar with John Williams and for piano with Nikolai
Demidenko (transcribed by Buzzoni)
Am I mistaken or is the original for violin? It says on the Heifetz notes from
"Partita for solo violin No. 2".
Anyway, the piano version seemed a bit too much, and my impression was that
Demidenko was using the piece to "show off" his technical expertise in a
sense, which made the Chaconne very aggressive and intense at times. My
understanding is that the piece is more like a rather solemn set of
variations, which begets a general sense of introspection and quiet depth,
unlike what Demidenko does with the piece. He almost breaks the damn piano at
some places.
Heifetz's violin is wonderful, but if that's the original, it's a bit dry for
my taste. I guess the violin is not perfectly suited for the Chaconne's
polyphony, but it is acceptable. It almost pushes the violin polyphony to its
limits...
The best I think was the John Williams guitar version. The guitar version
brings out EXACTLY the spirit of this piece, imo. Not too loud, not too quiet,
just right. Sort of more uniform.
Any opinions from others who have heard all three versions?
Are there any other pieces by JS for which you like a transcribed version more
than the original?
--
Ioannis
-------
The best way to predict reality, is to know exactly what you DON'T want.

I prefer the Busoni piano version to either the violin or the guitar
versions. I recommend piano performance recordings by Alicia de la
Rocha and Gordon Fergus-Thompson, each of which is excellent.