performing

[Dirk]

I'm interested in what people have to say about some practical issues
regarding performing Bach.

First there is the notion of using sheet music or not. These last years
I've been concentrating on performing Bach without the sheet music, and
find it freed me up in many ways, though I did have to get used to the
insecurity of the music not being there.Some interesting things came up
in the process ... mainly issues on how we learn ... For me, the
morning practice would reveal the notes not yet remembered
sufficiently. Also, once a mistake is inadvertantly made, the brain
seems to remember this and tends to repeat this mistake next time
around ... indicating a kind of short term memory.

The process of performing interests me too, since a lot depend on the
state of mind ... which for me seems to hover between concentration and
automation. For me personally, concentrating on the mannerism (i.e. how
you play) works best, rather then thinking about the notes.

For the guitar players out there, I'm interested in which works are
suitable for the guitar. Playing a fugue on guitar sounds to me quite
an incredible feat.

Also, I would like to know what other types of music you perform. I
love 'world' music (African and Indian especially) and also jazz,
folk, funk ... I find playing these other styles has really helped me
playing Bach (and v.v.) ...

any takers?

[Andrew Schulman]

I became an 8-string guitarist, having started on the standard 6-string
instrument, for a number of reasons, one of which was to play Bach's
Fugue BWV 1000 with the bass line intact (yes, I know this arrangement
may not have been done by Bach but more likely J.C. Weyrauch; there are
some differences that to me are preferable in the violin version and I
use them instead). The Fugue from BWV 998 is also glorious on the
8-string guitar. In fact, we guitarists have in Bach our best and most
abundant composer!

I am a professional musician and enjoy playing a wide range of music.
I would hate to confine myself re: repertoire. I play what I enjoy and
there is a lot of great music in this world.

As to using a score or not, do what is most comfortable for you. It is
usually more effective though to play from memory if you are playing
solo. As far as becoming a good performer, you have to do it a lot to
get used to all the difficulties inherent in that activity.

Andrew
http://www.abacaproductions.com/

[Dirk]

In fact, we guitarists have in Bach our best and most abundant composer!

I have to confess, I was totally ignorant of Bach's works for the Lute
... how many did he actually write (I understand some were
arrangements)? And how many strings did the Lute have?
I play currently with a North African singer, we sometimes uses an
'OUD' player, which has 4 or 5 double strings (i.e. 8 or 10). Looks
very much like a lute, and sounds fantastic with all its little bends
and trills.

BTW, I liked your rendition of Bach's Fugue from the web page ...

I'm working on a performance, a little like 'Bach in Africa' but using
authentic pieces of Bach instead of integrating it within a
composition. I think, the combination of Bach's 'spiritual' music, with
the 'soulful' X-rhythms of Africa should make for a great show. The
general idea is to play a Bach piece, followed by an ethnic or modern
piece based on some of the ideas in the former. I'm thinking of using,
like 12 or so Bach works (from the Suites, Goldberg variations, WTC,
and AOF) played on a, dare I say it, grand piano, and synth for the AOF
work.

[Andrew Schulman]

Thanks Dirk.

There are quite a few versions of the lute. The Renaissance lute was
tuned very differently then the Baroque lute, the R. version being very
similar in strings 1-6 to the modern guitar (except that the lute had
"courses", double strung like the modern 12 string guitar, although the
1st string was usually a single as that was where the melody happened
most often and more clarity was needed). The B. lute tuning was
totally different. Also the number and tuning of the bass strings
varied a lot depending on how that particular lute was used; either as
a solo or ensemble instrument. Just google, Lute, Theorbo, Archlute,
etc. There are many sites that will go into detail.

There are 4 Bach suites designated as "Lute" suites, but probably only
BWV 995 was really intended specifically for lute. There are also
individual pieces, especially the famous Prelude, BWV 999, that were
specifically written for the lute.

The guitarist/lutanist Jerry Willard recently told me that the Bach
lute pieces were intended for lutes with the Renaissance tuning as they
were still being played a lot in that time, and this would account for
the suitability of BWV 1006a for instance which does not work well if
at all in the Baroque tuning. It is important to note in this regard
that tuning was also affected by the size and string length of the
instrument, so that a larger lute may have been tuned E-A-D-f#-b-e (6th
string to 1st) so that 1006a would be played in E major, same key as
the violin version. The smaller lutes and more common tuning was
G-C-F-a-d-g . BTW, the Baroque tuning was
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html

Anyway, the lute, like the guitar, comes in many sizes and shapes and
tunings, so you would need to do some research to get a good
understanding of this instrument.

Andrew

[Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Andrew Schulman
Thanks Dirk.
There are quite a few versions of the lute. The Renaissance lute was
tuned very differently then the Baroque lute, the R. version being very
similar in strings 1-6 to the modern guitar (except that the lute had
"courses", double strung like the modern 12 string guitar, although the
1st string was usually a single as that was where the melody happened
most often and more clarity was needed). The B. lute tuning was
totally different. Also the number and tuning of the bass strings
varied a lot depending on how that particular lute was used; either as
a solo or ensemble instrument. Just google, Lute, Theorbo, Archlute,
etc. There are many sites that will go into detail.
There are 4 Bach suites designated as "Lute" suites, but probably only
BWV 995 was really intended specifically for lute. There are also
individual pieces, especially the famous Prelude, BWV 999, that were
specifically written for the lute.
The guitarist/lutanist Jerry Willard recently told me that the Bach
lute pieces were intended for lutes with the Renaissance tuning as they
were still being played a lot in that time, and this would account for
the suitability of BWV 1006a for instance which does not work well if
at all in the Baroque tuning.

Thanks for the info--I'd always assumed they were for baroque lute, and
I'm thinking most of the recordings I'd heard were on baroque
lute--Dombois and Kirschoff for instance, and I think the recordings I
have of Nigel North are on 13 ch lute.
Does Jerry Willard record on a ren. lute?

Steve



It is important to note in this regard

Post by Andrew Schulman
that tuning was also affected by the size and string length of the
instrument, so that a larger lute may have been tuned E-A-D-f#-b-e (6th
string to 1st) so that 1006a would be played in E major, same key as
the violin version. The smaller lutes and more common tuning was
G-C-F-a-d-g . BTW, the Baroque tuning was
http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html
Anyway, the lute, like the guitar, comes in many sizes and shapes and
tunings, so you would need to do some research to get a good
understanding of this instrument.
Andrew

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Steven Bornfeld
Thanks for the info--I'd always assumed they were for baroque lute, and
I'm thinking most of the recordings I'd heard were on baroque
lute--Dombois and Kirschoff for instance, and I think the recordings I
have of Nigel North are on 13 ch lute.
Does Jerry Willard record on a ren. lute?
Steve

I'll check with Jerry and another lute player friend of mine-

A.

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Steven Bornfeld
Does Jerry Willard record on a ren. lute?

Waiting to get more info about the lute suites. However, to answer
your other question, Jerry has a range of lutes, guitars, and vihuelas.
And he has recorded on Renaissance and Baroque lutes.

A.

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Andrew Schulman

Post by Steven Bornfeld
Does Jerry Willard record on a ren. lute?

Waiting to get more info about the lute suites. However, to answer
your other question, Jerry has a range of lutes, guitars, and vihuelas.
And he has recorded on Renaissance and Baroque lutes.
A.

Thanks Andrew. I see he has some recordings out--I should get these in
any case.
Lute (as an instrument for me to try) scares the hell out of me. Guys
like Crim certainly aren't encouraging.
I love the sound of lute--maybe the big lutes best of all. But they
really seem like temperamental beasts--esp. the big ones, and I have
enough trouble with 6 strings.
But I like to dream.

Steve

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Thanks Andrew. I see he has some recordings out--I should get these in
any case.
Lute (as an instrument for me to try) scares the hell out of me. Guys
like Crim certainly aren't encouraging.
I love the sound of lute--maybe the big lutes best of all. But they
really seem like temperamental beasts--esp. the big ones, and I have
enough trouble with 6 strings.

There are also the guitars with more than 6 strings, Crim plays
11-string guitar now instead of lute. And of course I also recommend
the 8-string guitar!

Andrew

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Andrew Schulman

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Thanks Andrew. I see he has some recordings out--I should get these in
any case.
Lute (as an instrument for me to try) scares the hell out of me. Guys
like Crim certainly aren't encouraging.
I love the sound of lute--maybe the big lutes best of all. But they
really seem like temperamental beasts--esp. the big ones, and I have
enough trouble with 6 strings.

There are also the guitars with more than 6 strings, Crim plays
11-string guitar now instead of lute. And of course I also recommend
the 8-string guitar!
Andrew

Yes, he mentioned the reason over on rmcg--I'm glad he can still play.
Still, he's nowhere near as warm and fuzzy as you are--he's bitten my
head off on occasion.

Steve

[Zach]

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Yes, he mentioned the reason over on rmcg--I'm glad he can still play.
Still, he's nowhere near as warm and fuzzy as you are--he's bitten my
head off on occasion.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

Perhaps he has an over bite and could use your professional services?
;-)

Zach

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Zach

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
Yes, he mentioned the reason over on rmcg--I'm glad he can still play.
Still, he's nowhere near as warm and fuzzy as you are--he's bitten my
head off on occasion.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

Perhaps he has an over bite and could use your professional services?
;-)
Zach

In the years I've been on usenet(maybe 5 years now), I don't think I've
developed even one patient from any non-dental newsgroups.
The person in question isn't local; he's very smart, very
opinionated--someone who'd be nice to sit down and have a beer with.
Oh, I don't do orthodontics.

Steve

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Steven Bornfeld
Thanks for the info--I'd always assumed they were for baroque lute, and
I'm thinking most of the recordings I'd heard were on baroque
lute--Dombois and Kirschoff for instance, and I think the recordings I
have of Nigel North are on 13 ch lute.

Here is the answer I just received from one of my lute player friends:

"There is a wing of the lute folks that think that lute suites were
written for the 14 course archlute because of those pesky low notes
that aren't playable on the 13 course D min lute. Archlutes are just
renaissance tuned lutes with a lot more basses.

Personally, I don't think that Bach wrote for either one. Instead, I
think he wrote them for the keyboard."

Please note that BWV 995, Lute Suite #3 in G minor, is inscribed,
"Suite pour la Luth, par J.S. Bach". See
http://bachplucked.com/bwv995.htm for more information.

A.

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Andrew Schulman

Post by Steven Bornfeld
Thanks for the info--I'd always assumed they were for baroque lute, and
I'm thinking most of the recordings I'd heard were on baroque
lute--Dombois and Kirschoff for instance, and I think the recordings I
have of Nigel North are on 13 ch lute.

"There is a wing of the lute folks that think that lute suites were
written for the 14 course archlute because of those pesky low notes
that aren't playable on the 13 course D min lute. Archlutes are just
renaissance tuned lutes with a lot more basses.
Personally, I don't think that Bach wrote for either one. Instead, I
think he wrote them for the keyboard."
Please note that BWV 995, Lute Suite #3 in G minor, is inscribed,
"Suite pour la Luth, par J.S. Bach". See
http://bachplucked.com/bwv995.htm for more information.
A.

I have Zigante's book--his opinion is that BWV 995, 998, and 999 were
"certain(ly)" for the lute, "probable" for Partita BWV 997, 1006a and
Fugue BWV 1000 "but highly questionable" for Suite BWV 996.

So, those "pesky low notes" have been causing problems for quite some
time, huh? ;-)

Steve

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I have Zigante's book--his opinion is that BWV 995, 998, and 999 were
"certain(ly)" for the lute, "probable" for Partita BWV 997, 1006a and
Fugue BWV 1000 "but highly questionable" for Suite BWV 996.
So, those "pesky low notes" have been causing problems for quite some
time, huh? ;-)

If they were in fact intended for the arch-lute that increases the
likelihood that lute was intended because that means they are all quite
playable. If I remember correctly, BWV 1006a for instance is not
playable at all on the Dm lute if attempted in E major; it is usually
transposed to F for that instrument.

A.

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Andrew Schulman

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I have Zigante's book--his opinion is that BWV 995, 998, and 999 were
"certain(ly)" for the lute, "probable" for Partita BWV 997, 1006a and
Fugue BWV 1000 "but highly questionable" for Suite BWV 996.
So, those "pesky low notes" have been causing problems for quite some
time, huh? ;-)

If they were in fact intended for the arch-lute that increases the
likelihood that lute was intended because that means they are all quite
playable. If I remember correctly, BWV 1006a for instance is not
playable at all on the Dm lute if attempted in E major; it is usually
transposed to F for that instrument.
A.

If I ever get sorely tempted to go over to the dark side, I've heard
that Pat O'Brien is the guy to go to--he lives too close to me.

Steve

[Andrew Schulman]

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
If I ever get sorely tempted to go over to the dark side, I've heard
that Pat O'Brien is the guy to go to--he lives too close to me.

Just heard from Jerry Willard; he's convinced they were intended for
arch-lute.

Also, he's a great teacher (I studied with him at Stony Brook
University) and would also be a great choice if you are looking for a
lute teacher.

A.

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Post by Andrew Schulman

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld
If I ever get sorely tempted to go over to the dark side, I've heard
that Pat O'Brien is the guy to go to--he lives too close to me.

Just heard from Jerry Willard; he's convinced they were intended for
arch-lute.
Also, he's a great teacher (I studied with him at Stony Brook
University) and would also be a great choice if you are looking for a
lute teacher.
A.

He still live on the upper west side?

Steve

[Tom Hens]

Post by Dirk
I have to confess, I was totally ignorant of Bach's works for the Lute

That is understandable. After all, they've only been included in the BG
edition since the mid-nineteenth century, and in the BWV and the NBA since
the mid-twentieth century, and they've only been available in lots of
different recordings in any decent shop selling classical LP's and CD's for
at least four decades. Who could be surprised that a self-appointed expert
pontificating about Bach in a newsgroup called alt.music.j-s-bach in 2006
has never even heard of them before?

[Dirk]

Post by Tom Hens

Post by Dirk
I have to confess, I was totally ignorant of Bach's works for the Lute

That is understandable. After all, they've only been included in the BG
edition since the mid-nineteenth century, and in the BWV and the NBA since
the mid-twentieth century, and they've only been available in lots of
different recordings in any decent shop selling classical LP's and CD's for
at least four decades. Who could be surprised that a self-appointed expert
pontificating about Bach in a newsgroup called alt.music.j-s-bach in 2006
has never even heard of them before?

Thank God, for a while there, reading your first line, I thought you
were going to exhibit some humanity, destroying my idea of you as this
arrogant nit-picking knocker .

... I never claimed to be an expert ...

What's YOUR contribution to the spirit of Bach? ... Even if you knew
everything about Bach, this still wouldn't bring you any closer to his
spirit ...

It's well known in psychology that people like you knock others in
order to feel less inferior.

I know I should stop reacting to this crap, but it's a bit like a turd
that won't flush ...