Discussion:
The Well-Tempered Clavier
(too old to reply)
jedic24
2005-12-19 23:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Greetings! This is my first post to the group. I'm a classical pianist and
recently decided that I would like to work my way through and hopefully
memorize both books of The Well-Tempered Clavier. Until recently my focus
has mainly been on the romantic composers, I'm just discovering my love for
baroque. So my experience with Bach has been limited to those few pieces
I've learned through the years to appease my teachers and for various
concerts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about playing this
intriguing collection of preludes and fugues.

Thanks!
Heidi
€ Alias
2005-12-20 01:48:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:51:16 GMT, "jedic24"
Post by jedic24
Greetings! This is my first post to the group. I'm a classical pianist and
recently decided that I would like to work my way through and hopefully
memorize both books of The Well-Tempered Clavier. Until recently my focus
has mainly been on the romantic composers, I'm just discovering my love for
baroque. So my experience with Bach has been limited to those few pieces
I've learned through the years to appease my teachers and for various
concerts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about playing this
intriguing collection of preludes and fugues.
Thanks!
Heidi
I would stress learning to hear each line as an individual entity.
(that's what my teacher told me)

Harmonic Analysis can be helpful for a lot of performance issues.

For example, I did one on the WTC Prelude 1 book 1 in
rec.music.theory

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.theory/browse_frm/thread/7d714aff9532273e/b1c0c292275f890a?lnk=st&q=group%3Arec.music.theory+insubject%3ANeed+insubject%3Ahelp+insubject%3Awith+insubject%3AHarmonic+insubject%3AAnalysis+insubject%3AWTC+insubject%3A1+insubject%3Aprelude+insubject%3A1&rnum=1&hl=en#b1c0c292275f890a

And it really helped my performance


those guys there really know their stuff - I'm just an amatuer, so I
had to go back to doing H.A. on Anna Magdalenas notebook,and then the
371.

So if you feel you might benefit from something like that (some people
like theory, some hate it, I've found)
, i'd suggest rec.music.theory for specific advice, in addition to
whatever advice you get from the knowledgeable folks here

[Just be sure to avoid a certain Albert Silverman if you do go there.]

HTH, and sorry about the ridiculousy long link.

¤Alias
Ioannis
2005-12-20 18:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by jedic24
Greetings! This is my first post to the group. I'm a classical pianist and
recently decided that I would like to work my way through and hopefully
memorize both books of The Well-Tempered Clavier. Until recently my focus
has mainly been on the romantic composers, I'm just discovering my love for
baroque. So my experience with Bach has been limited to those few pieces
I've learned through the years to appease my teachers and for various
concerts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about playing this
intriguing collection of preludes and fugues.
Playing all of them would be entirely different from memorizing all of them.
Most professional pianists, avoid the two books like the plague,
particularly in live performances. And this is to be expected somewhat:
Memorizing all of them (correctly) is notoriously difficult.

Two years ago, when I took my placement exam for my entrance to the
conservatory after 5 years of absence, before starting Prelude and Fugue II
from WTC book II, I first publically apologized to the committee for any
mistakes on the fugue stretto. Lo and behold, although I went through the
entire Etude #5 opus 25 without a single mistake, I chopped the stretto to
pieces. I picked up and finished it, but there's something in Bach's WTC
which interferes with my memory. I don't know what it is.

I can only wish you luck, stamina and faith.
Post by jedic24
Thanks!
Heidi
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
j***@yahoo.com
2005-12-20 19:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ioannis
Post by jedic24
Greetings! This is my first post to the group. I'm a classical pianist
and
Post by jedic24
recently decided that I would like to work my way through and hopefully
memorize both books of The Well-Tempered Clavier. Until recently my focus
has mainly been on the romantic composers, I'm just discovering my love
for
Post by jedic24
baroque. So my experience with Bach has been limited to those few pieces
I've learned through the years to appease my teachers and for various
concerts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about playing this
intriguing collection of preludes and fugues.
Playing all of them would be entirely different from memorizing all of them.
Most professional pianists, avoid the two books like the plague,
Memorizing all of them (correctly) is notoriously difficult.
Two years ago, when I took my placement exam for my entrance to the
conservatory after 5 years of absence, before starting Prelude and Fugue II
from WTC book II, I first publically apologized to the committee for any
mistakes on the fugue stretto. Lo and behold, although I went through the
entire Etude #5 opus 25 without a single mistake, I chopped the stretto to
pieces. I picked up and finished it, but there's something in Bach's WTC
which interferes with my memory. I don't know what it is.
I can only wish you luck, stamina and faith.
Etude #5? Opus 25? Since when did Bach write Etudes and have Opus
numbers?

Jimmy Boy
Ioannis
2005-12-20 20:55:25 UTC
Permalink
<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Etude #5? Opus 25? Since when did Bach write Etudes and have Opus
numbers?
Etude #5, opus 25 by Chopin.

Thank you for this *VERY IMPORTANT* correction to my omission!
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Jimmy Boy
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
Young Generation
2005-12-20 20:41:38 UTC
Permalink
That's quite an accomplishment, Ioannis. Did your fingers turn black with
all that practice?

Ricardo.
========================
Post by Ioannis
Post by jedic24
Greetings! This is my first post to the group. I'm a classical pianist
and
Post by jedic24
recently decided that I would like to work my way through and hopefully
memorize both books of The Well-Tempered Clavier. Until recently my focus
has mainly been on the romantic composers, I'm just discovering my love
for
Post by jedic24
baroque. So my experience with Bach has been limited to those few pieces
I've learned through the years to appease my teachers and for various
concerts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about playing this
intriguing collection of preludes and fugues.
Playing all of them would be entirely different from memorizing all of them.
Most professional pianists, avoid the two books like the plague,
Memorizing all of them (correctly) is notoriously difficult.
Two years ago, when I took my placement exam for my entrance to the
conservatory after 5 years of absence, before starting Prelude and Fugue II
from WTC book II, I first publically apologized to the committee for any
mistakes on the fugue stretto. Lo and behold, although I went through the
entire Etude #5 opus 25 without a single mistake, I chopped the stretto to
pieces. I picked up and finished it, but there's something in Bach's WTC
which interferes with my memory. I don't know what it is.
I can only wish you luck, stamina and faith.
Post by jedic24
Thanks!
Heidi
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
Ioannis
2005-12-20 21:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Young Generation
That's quite an accomplishment, Ioannis. Did your fingers turn black with
all that practice?
Not all of them. Only my middle finger turned black. Do you want to see it?
Post by Young Generation
Ricardo.
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
Young Generation
2005-12-20 21:30:23 UTC
Permalink
I was just making a facetious remark. Isn't Opus 25, No. 5 the "Black Key
Etude"? To tackle an entrance examination at a conservatory after laying
off the instrument for 5 years _IS_ an accomplishment.

Maybe I've got the numbers wrong. No 9. Is that the "Butterfly"? Or don;t
you use the nicknames? But I won;t joke about it, when and if you ever play
it.

ricardo.
===============================
Post by Ioannis
Post by Young Generation
That's quite an accomplishment, Ioannis. Did your fingers turn black with
all that practice?
Not all of them. Only my middle finger turned black. Do you want to see it?
Post by Young Generation
Ricardo.
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
d***@yahoo.com
2005-12-21 04:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ioannis
Post by jedic24
Greetings! This is my first post to the group. I'm a classical pianist
and
Post by jedic24
recently decided that I would like to work my way through and hopefully
memorize both books of The Well-Tempered Clavier. Until recently my focus
has mainly been on the romantic composers, I'm just discovering my love
for
Post by jedic24
baroque. So my experience with Bach has been limited to those few pieces
I've learned through the years to appease my teachers and for various
concerts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about playing this
intriguing collection of preludes and fugues.
Playing all of them would be entirely different from memorizing all of them.
Most professional pianists, avoid the two books like the plague,
Memorizing all of them (correctly) is notoriously difficult.
Two years ago, when I took my placement exam for my entrance to the
conservatory after 5 years of absence, before starting Prelude and Fugue II
from WTC book II, I first publically apologized to the committee for any
mistakes on the fugue stretto. Lo and behold, although I went through the
entire Etude #5 opus 25 without a single mistake, I chopped the stretto to
pieces. I picked up and finished it, but there's something in Bach's WTC
which interferes with my memory. I don't know what it is.
I can only wish you luck, stamina and faith.
Post by jedic24
Thanks!
Heidi
--
I.N. Galidakis --- http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/
Interesting. I never had any problems with the stretto in the C min.
fugue from book 2. I actually like listening to that one. The stretto
from book 2 that I could never get right was the D major one. (that's
the one that reminds me of the theme to Beethoven's 5th.)
j***@yahoo.com
2005-12-21 21:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by jedic24
Greetings! This is my first post to the group. I'm a classical pianist and
recently decided that I would like to work my way through and hopefully
memorize both books of The Well-Tempered Clavier. Until recently my focus
has mainly been on the romantic composers, I'm just discovering my love for
baroque. So my experience with Bach has been limited to those few pieces
I've learned through the years to appease my teachers and for various
concerts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about playing this
intriguing collection of preludes and fugues.
Thanks!
Heidi
I am surprised at why the WTC is more popular that the Partitas that
Bach wrote. I always thought that they were much more enjoyable to
hear. I rarely listen to the WTC I or II.

Am I the only one?

Jimmy Boy
John L. Grant
2005-12-22 03:32:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by jedic24
Greetings! This is my first post to the group. I'm a classical pianist and
recently decided that I would like to work my way through and hopefully
memorize both books of The Well-Tempered Clavier. Until recently my focus
has mainly been on the romantic composers, I'm just discovering my love for
baroque. So my experience with Bach has been limited to those few pieces
I've learned through the years to appease my teachers and for various
concerts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about playing this
intriguing collection of preludes and fugues.
Thanks!
Heidi
I am surprised at why the WTC is more popular that the Partitas that
Bach wrote. I always thought that they were much more enjoyable to
hear. I rarely listen to the WTC I or II.
Am I the only one?
Jimmy Boy
The WTC contains some of the very best solo keyboard work Bach ever
wrote. The Partitas are beautiful and irreplaceable, to be sure, but
not in the same league as the WTC.

Unfortunately, the WTC are easy to make utterly cheerless, lifeless,
and uninteresting. The trick is to here them played by someone who
speaks to you. At least, to begin with. For me, that was in the first
instance Richter and Feinberg, not Gould, much as I like him. For
others it may be someone completely different, perhaps playing the
harpsichord.

JG
don adams
2005-12-22 18:43:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by John L. Grant
Unfortunately, the WTC are easy to make utterly cheerless, lifeless,
and uninteresting. The trick is to here them played by someone who
speaks to you.
This raised an interesting thought for me, one I've had in the back
of my mind for some years now. In my opinion, the keyboard music
of JS Bach is best appreciated by the player of it. And this is in
good keeping with the knowledge that almost all of JSB's keyboard
output was actually written for the player, as a means of furthering
his/her art.

I've always loved his keyboard music, since a very early age. But until
I began to play it, my appreciation of it went only so far. The miracle
of the music was not fully revealed to me until I began to re-create
the music with my own hands. Then I began to realize that Bach's
purpose was to give to the player a gift, an amazing creation in sound,
designed to inspire and educate.

I guess what I'm saying is that while Bach's keyboard music can be
and certainly is appreciated by non-players, there is an element to
the music that can only be grasped by those who undertake to
play it. Many structural aspects of the fugues become much clearer
when you actually play them, for example.

Any thoughts on this?
John L. Grant
2005-12-22 19:13:20 UTC
Permalink
Of course, the structure of the fugues becomes much clearer when you
tackle and organize the music conceptually for yourself. Still,
recordings and performances also bring much to light that you might not
have conceived of on your own, even with the advantage of playing the
music yourself, and all the close scrutiny that entails.

JG
j***@yahoo.com
2005-12-22 19:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by John L. Grant
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by jedic24
Greetings! This is my first post to the group. I'm a classical pianist and
recently decided that I would like to work my way through and hopefully
memorize both books of The Well-Tempered Clavier. Until recently my focus
has mainly been on the romantic composers, I'm just discovering my love for
baroque. So my experience with Bach has been limited to those few pieces
I've learned through the years to appease my teachers and for various
concerts. I would appreciate any advice anyone has about playing this
intriguing collection of preludes and fugues.
Thanks!
Heidi
I am surprised at why the WTC is more popular that the Partitas that
Bach wrote. I always thought that they were much more enjoyable to
hear. I rarely listen to the WTC I or II.
Am I the only one?
Jimmy Boy
The WTC contains some of the very best solo keyboard work Bach ever
wrote. The Partitas are beautiful and irreplaceable, to be sure, but
not in the same league as the WTC.
Unfortunately, the WTC are easy to make utterly cheerless, lifeless,
and uninteresting. The trick is to here them played by someone who
speaks to you. At least, to begin with. For me, that was in the first
instance Richter and Feinberg, not Gould, much as I like him. For
others it may be someone completely different, perhaps playing the
harpsichord.
JG
I think some of the best is relative. I wouldn't want to begin to
describe how many pieces fall into "some of the best keyboard" work of
Bach. Personally, I think the 48 fugues of the WTC to be a little
tiresome at times. I think the keyboard suites of Bach show his
creativity better. The diversity of pieces in the French, English and
German suites are amazing. Also, the German Suite or Partita has some
very difficult movements.

It is a matter of taste.

Jimmy Boy
€ Alias
2005-12-24 10:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by John L. Grant
Post by j***@yahoo.com
I am surprised at why the WTC is more popular that the Partitas that
Bach wrote. I always thought that they were much more enjoyable to
hear. I rarely listen to the WTC I or II.
Am I the only one?
Jimmy Boy
The WTC contains some of the very best solo keyboard work Bach ever
wrote. The Partitas are beautiful and irreplaceable, to be sure, but
not in the same league as the WTC.
Unfortunately, the WTC are easy to make utterly cheerless, lifeless,
and uninteresting. The trick is to here them played by someone who
speaks to you. At least, to begin with. For me, that was in the first
instance Richter and Feinberg, not Gould, much as I like him. For
others it may be someone completely different, perhaps playing the
harpsichord.
JG
I think some of the best is relative. I wouldn't want to begin to
describe how many pieces fall into "some of the best keyboard" work of
Bach. Personally, I think the 48 fugues of the WTC to be a little
tiresome at times. I think the keyboard suites of Bach show his
creativity better. The diversity of pieces in the French, English and
German suites are amazing. Also, the German Suite or Partita has some
very difficult movements.
It is a matter of taste.
Jimmy Boy
I think the OP, and everyone who responded are all correct in their
own way. I'm listening to WTC on WKCR right now (5:15 am, NYC time),
and some of these versions are speaking to me in ways I've never
picked up on before. Clarity, in both performance and sound
engineering, can be very enlightening.

I'm (suprisingly), liking some of Keith Jarrett's performances very
much. Some, sadly, miss the mark for me.

But it's not hard to find someone else who has done a great job on the
one's that miss the mark.

¤ Alias
John L. Grant
2005-12-29 13:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by € Alias
I think the OP, and everyone who responded are all correct in their
own way. I'm listening to WTC on WKCR right now (5:15 am, NYC time),
and some of these versions are speaking to me in ways I've never
picked up on before. Clarity, in both performance and sound
engineering, can be very enlightening.
I'm (suprisingly), liking some of Keith Jarrett's performances very
much. Some, sadly, miss the mark for me.
But it's not hard to find someone else who has done a great job on the
one's that miss the mark.
¤ Alias
Which p and f are the difficult ones, the ones that are hard to get
right (in your view)?

JG
http://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=98
€ Alias
2005-12-29 17:00:00 UTC
Permalink
On 29 Dec 2005 05:46:40 -0800, "John L. Grant"
Post by John L. Grant
Post by € Alias
I think the OP, and everyone who responded are all correct in their
own way. I'm listening to WTC on WKCR right now (5:15 am, NYC time),
and some of these versions are speaking to me in ways I've never
picked up on before. Clarity, in both performance and sound
engineering, can be very enlightening.
I'm (suprisingly), liking some of Keith Jarrett's performances very
much. Some, sadly, miss the mark for me.
But it's not hard to find someone else who has done a great job on the
one's that miss the mark.
¤ Alias
Which p and f are the difficult ones, the ones that are hard to get
right (in your view)?
JG
http://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=98
Off the top of my head, the prelude in C# major WTC II sticks out in
my mind. Something about it speaks to me differently than all the
other movements. It could just be me, but that p is an oddball. I've
heard someone take it at the entirely wrong tempo (too slow) on the
H-Chord and it totally fell apart.(Keith got the spirit right, though)

As far as Keith Jarrett is concerned, I feel satisfied with most of
the performances, and would have to go back and relisten to my WKCR
recordings to point outt he ones I wasn't happy with. When time
allows, I'll revisit Keith and answer the question properly. Till
then, I'll be listening to the broadcast from WKCR.ORG. Fascinating
interview with Nikolaus Harnoncourt occurring RIGHT NOW.

Peace.
¤ Alias
John L. Grant
2005-12-29 21:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by € Alias
Off the top of my head, the prelude in C# major WTC II sticks out in
my mind. Something about it speaks to me differently than all the
other movements. It could just be me, but that p is an oddball. I've
heard someone take it at the entirely wrong tempo (too slow) on the
H-Chord and it totally fell apart.(Keith got the spirit right, though)
As far as Keith Jarrett is concerned, I feel satisfied with most of
the performances, and would have to go back and relisten to my WKCR
recordings to point outt he ones I wasn't happy with. When time
allows, I'll revisit Keith and answer the question properly. Till
then, I'll be listening to the broadcast from WKCR.ORG. Fascinating
interview with Nikolaus Harnoncourt occurring RIGHT NOW.
Peace.
¤ Alias
I find that the long and difficult fugues, especially in Book 1, can
easily make any WTC "as a whole." I mean, to give just a few
examples, bk 1 fugues 4 8 12 and 24. Any one of these can sink a
recording or a live performance. I think we like to think that there
are pianists or keyboard players out there who can pull off the whole
48; but that's exceedingly rare. I know well only piano versions, and
amoung those, only Richter, Feinberg, and Demus (for my taste) come
close to pulling off "all" of them.

JG
http://www.pianosociety.com/index.php?id=98

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